From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changing the no-toolkit scrollbar thumb color. (minor issue) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 20:25:29 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <20031005002529.GC23295@fencepost> References: <200309262123.h8QLNNi07638@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200309272155.h8RLttv09524@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200309281642.h8SGgxc11119@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200309281801.h8SI1gV11332@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <3F7F0D56.2020309@swipnet.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1065313803 1134 80.91.224.253 (5 Oct 2003 00:30:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 00:30:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bob@rattlesnake.com, teirllm@dms.auburn.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 05 02:30:00 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A5wme-0002ed-00 for ; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:30:00 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1A5wme-0008IH-00 for ; Sun, 05 Oct 2003 02:30:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A5wkx-0005ul-TN for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:28:15 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A5wkt-0005uU-Op for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:28:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1A5wkN-0005pm-0l for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:28:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1A5wkM-0005ph-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:27:38 -0400 Original-Received: from miles by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.24) id 1A5wiH-0006qT-UI; Sat, 04 Oct 2003 20:25:29 -0400 Original-To: "Jan D." Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F7F0D56.2020309@swipnet.se> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Blat: Foop X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:16936 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:16936 On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 08:11:34PM +0200, Jan D. wrote: > I am more leaning towards removing all customability in the GTK version of > Emacs. Mainly because the mechanisms used are not well documented in GTK, > they have confusing effects depending on what theme you use, but perhaps > the most important argument, GTK/Gnome has stated that the only > customization they really support is by themes. Well, I think to the extent that it's techically not a pain to do so, this attitude on the part of GTK/Gnome should be resisted as much as possible. It's certainly reasonable to put a big warning in the docs, like: THE GNOME MAINTAINERS ARE COMPLETE WANKERS, SO RESULTS OF GTK CUSTOMIZATIONS MAY NOT ALWAYS ACT IN A PREDICTABLE MANNER. [Ok, maybe phrase it a bit differently] Anyway, it's quite in keeping with emacs tradition to expose the functionality and let those who wish to use it do so, even if you can't guarantee the results; a warning should be enough. > One of the reasons to have GTK in the first place is to get a consistent > look-and-feel with other GTK/Gnome applications (granted Emacs uses > different icons). If customizations are needed, we can recommend another > toolkit. That's completely absurd. Perhaps the main goal of adding GTK support for you was `consistency,' which is admirable, but please don't repeat the mistakes of the Gnome project by deciding that `consistency' is so overarching a goal that it ought to trump all others. I use GTK because I _like it_, I think it's pretty, and I do like having the same look as other apps. On the other hand, I _also_ like customizations; not every app is the same, and themes don't manage to capture all the differences (not that GTK's customization facilities make it easy either). Emacs is, I think, often more atypical than other apps, both for cultural reasons (emacs users like their emacs, and usually have a pretty strong opinion what that means), and simply because GTK is basically retro-fitted to emacs, and so emacs will _never_ entirely conform to whatever rules other GTK apps do. Anyway, my main point is: document, don't enforce. I apologize if any of the above seems obnoxious; I'm very grateful for the work you've done in adding GTK support to emacs. -Miles -- "Most attacks seem to take place at night, during a rainstorm, uphill, where four map sheets join." -- Anon. British Officer in WW I