Re: Changing the no-toolkit scrollbar thumb color. (minor issue)

[Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org>]

On Sat, Oct 04, 2003 at 08:11:34PM +0200, Jan D. wrote:
> I am more leaning towards removing all customability in the GTK version of 
> Emacs.  Mainly because the mechanisms used are not well documented in GTK, 
> they have confusing effects depending on what theme you use, but perhaps 
> the most important argument, GTK/Gnome has stated that the only 
> customization they really support is by themes.

Well, I think to the extent that it's techically not a pain to do so, this
attitude on the part of GTK/Gnome should be resisted as much as possible.

It's certainly reasonable to put a big warning in the docs, like:

  THE GNOME MAINTAINERS ARE COMPLETE WANKERS, SO RESULTS OF GTK
  CUSTOMIZATIONS MAY NOT ALWAYS ACT IN A PREDICTABLE MANNER.

[Ok, maybe phrase it a bit differently]

Anyway, it's quite in keeping with emacs tradition to expose the
functionality and let those who wish to use it do so, even if you can't
guarantee the results; a warning should be enough.

> One of the reasons to have GTK in the first place is to get a consistent 
> look-and-feel with other GTK/Gnome applications (granted Emacs uses 
> different icons).  If customizations are needed, we can recommend another 
> toolkit.

That's completely absurd.

Perhaps the main goal of adding GTK support for you was `consistency,' which
is admirable, but please don't repeat the mistakes of the Gnome project by
deciding that `consistency' is so overarching a goal that it ought to trump
all others.

I use GTK because I _like it_, I think it's pretty, and I do like having the
same look as other apps.  On the other hand, I _also_ like customizations;
not every app is the same, and themes don't manage to capture all the
differences (not that GTK's customization facilities make it easy either).

Emacs is, I think, often more atypical than other apps, both for cultural
reasons (emacs users like their emacs, and usually have a pretty strong
opinion what that means), and simply because GTK is basically retro-fitted to
emacs, and so emacs will _never_ entirely conform to whatever rules other GTK
apps do.

Anyway, my main point is: document, don't enforce.

I apologize if any of the above seems obnoxious; I'm very grateful for the
work you've done in adding GTK support to emacs.

-Miles
-- 
"Most attacks seem to take place at night, during a rainstorm, uphill,
 where four map sheets join."   -- Anon. British Officer in WW I