From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reducing mouse-dependency In Emacs. Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:53:51 -0500 (CDT) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200308101453.h7AErpI20070@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <200308100342.h7A3gXV19877@raven.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1060527550 781 80.91.224.253 (10 Aug 2003 14:59:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:59:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 10 16:59:08 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19lrf2-0003Cj-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:59:08 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19lrls-0000gC-00 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:06:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lrcV-0001k3-2T for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:56:31 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19lrcB-0001jX-2M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:56:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19lrbe-0001gN-6e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:56:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19lrbd-0001gJ-Sq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:55:37 -0400 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h7AEtXeQ007003; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:55:34 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h7AErpI20070; Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:53:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: eliz@elta.co.il In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on 10 Aug 2003 08:08:02 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:15866 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:15866 Eli Zaretskii wrote: Rather than introducing new properties, I'd think it's better to have an option to display the text defined thru mouse-face and help-echo when point is anywhere inside the text covered by those properties. That might be another thing that could be done. However, it would seem that even if that were implemented, we still would need a function of the type `print-local-help', which could indeed be a lot shorter without the additional properties. The person who first complained about this (T. V. Raman) very explicitly did not want automatic display of the type you suggest: Would be a nice means to exploit some of the newer features of emacs ---as an example, balloon help in itself may not be directly useful to the emacspeak user --- you really dont want emacs intrrupting what you're listening to and tell you things --makes it too much like the dreaded office-clip from idiot-proven interfaces. On the other hand it would be nice to ask for a tooltip. The new text properties and the way to make them accessible are two separate issues. The new properties would just provide some extra flexibility. `short-help' would default to `help-echo' and would just be used if the author thought that whether the user is currently using the mouse or the keyboard makes a difference. `long-help' just provides a way to provide more elaborate help. In as far as `long-help' is concerned, that was inspired by another thread on `bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org'. Quoting Peter Seibel: Anyway, I noticed this problem because I was trying to use RET to enter a new line in the middle of a longish list (like the value of load-path) that I had just dumped into my *scratch* buffer to see what the heck it was and was pretty confused at what the heck was going on since the binding didn't show up in the mode documentation (nor, as it turns out, in the output of describe-bindings) I eventually figured out from experiments with C-h k more or less what was going on. Meant is the rebinding of RET (and mouse-2) in C-j output in Lisp interaction mode. So I thought that it might be good to be able to provide people with more elaborate information if they are confused, with links to other places, printed out keymaps and such. Maybe also information on how to customize or disable the feature if they are not happy with it. For this type of situation, optional automatic highlighting and display (of short `help-echo' type text) on "point-over" might indeed be a nice additional feature. Maybe `describe-bindings' could also list text and overlay property keymaps, that could also help. Sincerely, Luc.