From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Refilling overrides texinfo commands Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:53:38 -0500 (CDT) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200306262353.h5QNrc718263@eel.dms.auburn.edu> References: <200306251321.h5PDLjQ16340@eel.dms.auburn.edu> <5xznk5zmc8.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1056671880 27879 80.91.224.249 (26 Jun 2003 23:58:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:58:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: storm@cua.dk Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 27 01:57:54 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Vgck-0007FD-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:57:54 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19VghU-0000R5-00 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 02:02:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vgbq-0004br-2U for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:56:58 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19VgbS-0004Zn-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:56:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19VgYW-0003UL-To for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:53:33 -0400 Original-Received: from manatee.dms.auburn.edu ([131.204.53.104]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VgYM-0003Kl-VJ; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:53:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eel.dms.auburn.edu (eel.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.108]) h5QNrIoc009339; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:53:18 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by eel.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h5QNrc718263; Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:53:38 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: eel.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Thu, 26 Jun 2003 16:21:33 -0400) Original-cc: karl@freefriends.org Original-cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:15285 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:15285 Richard Stallman wrote: I have another solution to propose: 1. Change the standalone info to hide the same text as Emacs info does. 2. Change Makeinfo to recognize when filling that that text will be hidden. That would have the negative effect of effectively disabling Info-hide-note-references and making the text-hiding "mandatory" instead of having it as an optional feature. Several people prefer not to have the information in question hidden and they have valid reasons for that. I have the impression that some people on this list believe that the only reason one could probably want to have Info-hide-note-references set to anything else but t is to satisfy some strange ideological obsession. This is extremely far from the truth. I am not speaking in the abstract here. I am using Info extensively. For instance, I used Info recently to learn Texinfo. I was reluctant to just set Info-hide-note-references to nil, because I am rewriting parts of the tutorial and for that reason, I prefer to use all-default settings in Info. But I tended to leave vis-mode on in the presence of cross-references. The reason is that several cross-references in the Texinfo manual led to the Emacs manual. Knowing that information saved me the time and trouble to follow these cross-references: I already knew that stuff anyway. Similar situations occur in various other manuals I studied using Info. Also, if we want to maximize quality of appearance to the fullest then there are tons of things we might want to do. _This is really important stuff_ would look a lot better if it were written in the font used by texinfo-mode than enclosed in _..._. Same for *...*. It would look nicer if @code, @kbd and several others would yield different fonts and/or colors, rather than all being enclosed in `...'. Same for various different stuff enclosed in "...". In the case of @code, @kbd and the like, and even for _..._ and *...*, the information can not be reliably recovered from the Info file, but it is all in the source file. (I am not familiar with XML and DocBook.) So one question is: how far do we want to go longer term? Is the current hiding and refilling a first step to "better things to come"? Are we happy with the Info format for the long term or do we want a separate "Emacs format"? I believe that trying to reformat Info files, as currently being attempted, makes no sense. Info is an output format, not a mark up language. Texinfo is a mark up language. So are XML and DocBook. Sincerely, Luc.