From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Will default key bindings spell the death of Emacs? Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:45:26 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <20030529224526.GA5943@gnu.org> References: <3ED67422.7060305@math.ku.dk> <20030529214728.GA24984@gnu.org> <3ED68408.4080700@math.ku.dk> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1054248289 20433 80.91.224.249 (29 May 2003 22:44:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:44:49 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Fri May 30 00:44:45 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19LW8b-0005J1-00 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 00:44:45 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19LWNS-0003PN-00 for ; Fri, 30 May 2003 01:00:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19LWAf-000677-Sj for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:46:53 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LW9o-0005fl-Cc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:46:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19LW9P-0004lH-FY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:45:36 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19LW9H-0004Te-6m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:45:27 -0400 Original-Received: from miles by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.20) id 19LW9G-0002A7-Vd; Thu, 29 May 2003 18:45:26 -0400 Original-To: Lars Hansen Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3ED68408.4080700@math.ku.dk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Blat: Foop X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:14437 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:14437 On Fri, May 30, 2003 at 12:04:56AM +0200, Lars Hansen wrote: > >Emacs keybindings are not arbitrary, and they're a highly ingrained part of > >the editor and its culture. > > > Yes, and in my opinion it is a problem. Why? Since I'm not entirely > > MSWindows keybindings are not particularly great, and in my experience, > > most MSWindow users don't even _use_ keybindings (or know them), beyond > > the C-c/C-x/C-v triumvirate and the `shift-movement' selection -- both > > of which cua-mode handles. > > I do not argue that we should implement MS Windows-like keybindings. I just > argue that it should be easyer to change key bindings. Ok, maybe I misread your post. What exactly are you arguing for? Do you mean there should be a nicer user interface for users to edit their personal keybindings? > > To change them in any large way, there would have to be a _very_ good > > reason, and you certainly haven't shown one. > > The reason is to make Emacs more user friendly. More customizable. To make > more people use Emacs, and realize that free software is not just for nerds. I don't think this is as much an issue as you think -- in observing `naive' (used to MSWindows apps) users using emacs, I've noticed that they usually just ignore the keybindings altogether (even with cua-mode active) and use the mouse/menus for _everything_. To me this seems nuts, but I guess many people operate this way in MSWindows apps anyway. [and there's a certain point at which we _want_ to force people to come to grips with emacs' different style, because it will help them in the future (the whole give-a-fish/teach-to-fish thing)] -Miles -- Occam's razor split hairs so well, I bought the whole argument!