From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:29:24 -0600 (CST) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200304020429.h324TOP11647@eel.dms.auburn.edu> References: <20030325193739.ZGIN3924.fep01-svc.swip.net@gaffa.gaia.swipnet.se> <3E8345E8.4090509@swipnet.se> <1048872463.17161.132.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1049134327.3326.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1049257764 28482 80.91.224.249 (2 Apr 2003 04:29:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 04:29:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 02 06:29:21 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 190ZsH-0007P7-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:29:21 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 190ZtB-0002BY-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:30:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZsE-0002K5-00 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:29:18 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190Zrm-00027z-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:28:50 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZrS-0000yS-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:28:31 -0500 Original-Received: from manatee.dms.auburn.edu ([131.204.53.104]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190ZrN-0000fv-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 23:28:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eel.dms.auburn.edu (eel.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.108]) h324SNoc017428; Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:28:24 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by eel.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h324TOP11647; Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:29:24 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: eel.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: miles@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Miles Bader on 02 Apr 2003 12:55:49 +0900) Original-cc: rms@gnu.org Original-cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se Original-cc: otaylor@redhat.com Original-cc: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12832 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12832 Miles Bader wrote: I think that if this is the worry, it's groundless, because the emacs extensions are just that -- extensions, which extrapolate existing behavior, not really arbitrary differences in details, which is the usual case of problems arising with lookalike implemenations. It is a little bit more complicated than that. The Emacs behavior would be an alternative behavior, not an extension. There are two unrelated issues: 1. overscrolling versus non-overscrolling. As Owen pointed out to me, GTK already supports both. That is not the issue we are discussing. 2. A character based approach versus a pixel based approach. Two applications, Emacs and PixelStuff start out with exactly one window height (say sixty lines) full of stuff. Both allow overscrolling to put the last line at the top. In Emacs, the thumb covers the entire length of the scrollbar, because all text is visible, in PixelStuff it covers approximately half (60/119) of the scrollbar. We scroll to the bottom. In PixelStuff, the thumb stays the same size and moves smoothly to the bottom, until it hits the bottom, exactly when the last line of real text gets at the top. In Emacs, the thumb shrinks gradually to a size determined by (amount of characters on the last line) / (total amount of characters). This is different behavior, not an extension of behavior. A user of PixelStuff using Emacs for the first time will conclude that Emacs does not allow overscrolling, because the thumb already is at the bottom, so no downward scrolling is possible. An Emacs user using PixelStuff for the first time will conclude that he is only looking at half of the real text. Sincerely, Luc.