From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gtk scrollbar: thumb too short Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:30:42 -0600 (CST) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200304020330.h323Ugi11623@eel.dms.auburn.edu> References: <20030325193739.ZGIN3924.fep01-svc.swip.net@gaffa.gaia.swipnet.se> <3E8345E8.4090509@swipnet.se> <1048872463.17161.132.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1049134327.3326.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1049255826 22231 80.91.224.249 (2 Apr 2003 03:57:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 03:57:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 02 05:57:04 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 190ZN2-0005mR-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 05:57:04 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 190ZNw-0001po-00 for ; Wed, 02 Apr 2003 05:58:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190Z07-0001iq-07 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:33:23 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190Yyv-0001bj-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:32:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 190Yxe-00013y-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:30:51 -0500 Original-Received: from manatee.dms.auburn.edu ([131.204.53.104]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 190Ywe-000107-00; Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:29:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eel.dms.auburn.edu (eel.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.108]) h323Thoc017357; Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:29:43 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by eel.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h323Ugi11623; Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:30:42 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: eel.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: miles@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Miles Bader on 02 Apr 2003 10:33:14 +0900) Original-cc: rms@gnu.org Original-cc: jan.h.d@swipnet.se Original-cc: otaylor@redhat.com Original-cc: kai.grossjohann@uni-duisburg.de X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12830 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12830 Miles Bader wrote: Emacs should _definitely_ use the same scrollbar as other GTK apps because regardless of any different behavior in corner cases, it's 95% the same thing. I am not so sure. I personally believe that the difference between a character based view and a pixel based view is more than 5%. I believe there are essentially three possibilities: 1. Restore the native scrollbar as the default. (Perfectly acceptable to me, in fact, it is the solution I have chosen for my personal use, but I do not know whether it would be acceptable to other people.) 2. Use an imperfect approximation of the GTK scrollbar (or some other scrollbar) that looks like the GTK scrollbar, but that is a not very consistent hybrid between the GTK scrollbar and the native one. 3. Make the GTK scrollbar more customizable so that it can optionally handle a character based approach and hence behave, within Emacs, more like the native scrollbar than the pixel based variant of the GTK scrollbar. Both 1. and 3. would satisfy me as an Emacs user. If 2. is chosen then I hope that one will keep allowing users like me to override the default choice using: ./configure --without-toolkit-scroll-bars I somehow get the impression you're worried that if GTK supports these extensions for emacs, it will `pollute' users' idea of how a scrollbar works; if so this seems kind of silly. Owen should clarify his concerns himself, but I have the impression that his concerns with solution 3. (and 2., I guess) are that users would not longer clearly know what to expect when they see a GTK scrollbar. The appearance of the GTK scrollbar was chosen to provide a metaphor for a a pixel based approach. Exact same appearance with different behavior is confusing, unless the difference was due to customizations deliberately made by the user (as opposed to by the application). Sincerely, Luc.