From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound.. Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:31:20 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <20020903173120.GA29981@gnu.org> References: <87ofbji88u.fsf@emacswiki.org> <200209021705.g82H50d07442@rum.cs.yale.edu> <200209022324.g82NOoO08761@rum.cs.yale.edu> <20020903130247.GA6318@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1031074283 32151 127.0.0.1 (3 Sep 2002 17:31:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:31:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17mHWL-0008MQ-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 19:31:21 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17mI59-0004hF-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:07:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mHXq-00027r-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:32:54 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mHWN-00023Y-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mHWK-000237-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:31:22 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mHWK-000231-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:31:20 -0400 Original-Received: from miles by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.10) id 17mHWK-0008RH-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:31:20 -0400 Original-To: Per Abrahamsen Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Blat: Foop Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:7396 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:7396 On Tue, Sep 03, 2002 at 03:53:28PM +0200, Per Abrahamsen wrote: > >> I think such a seperation between Lisp and Customize will be both > >> simpler and more robust, as the two will never interfere with each > >> other. > > > > It sounds more confusing for the user to have two variables which are `the > > same but different' like that. > > The user will only see one of them, in this case either "global-map" > if he is a Lisp user, or "Global Key Bindings" if he is a Customize > user. There really isn't such a clean separation between `Lisp users' and `Customize users'. A few people only see the customize interface, but most will see both variables (since they are both really just variables). The `Lisp world' is a superset of the customize one. In the rest of your message you seem to really _wish_ there was such a separation, but there just isn't, and I don't think we can make one either, without completely changing emacs (and I don't want to change emacs, I think it's basically fine, despite some rough edges). Since there isn't such a separation, pretending there is just confuses people. > That is a good idea if we believe that the difference between > the customization needs of a programmer and a non-programmer is merely > a matter of syntactic sugar. You have to work within the reality of emacs, and in emacs, users can see all variables. That doesn't make them `programmers'. > > I think Stefan's exactly right that the _right_ thing to do is something > > roughly equivalent to `defcustom global-map'. > > Something like > (defkeymap my-mode-map ...) > generating all three for major and minor modes. Well, I'd say a macro like that might be a good idea, but it shouldn't `generate all three', it should just Do The Right Thing for _one_ keymap. -Miles -- P.S. All information contained in the above letter is false, for reasons of military security.