From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stefan Monnier" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound.. Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:04:30 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <200209031504.g83F4UD12516@rum.cs.yale.edu> References: <5xvg5sh06u.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> <20020830235528.GA13207@gnu.org> <87ofbji88u.fsf@emacswiki.org> <200209021705.g82H50d07442@rum.cs.yale.edu> <200209022324.g82NOoO08761@rum.cs.yale.edu> <20020903130247.GA6318@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1031065460 27702 127.0.0.1 (3 Sep 2002 15:04:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:04:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Miles Bader , emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17mFE2-0007Ch-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:04:18 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 17mFmn-00019D-00 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 17:40:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mFFa-0000xx-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:05:54 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mFEM-0000si-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:04:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10) id 17mFEK-0000sW-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:04:37 -0400 Original-Received: from rum.cs.yale.edu ([128.36.229.169]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17mFEH-0000sE-00; Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:04:33 -0400 Original-Received: (from monnier@localhost) by rum.cs.yale.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g83F4UD12516; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:04:30 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Original-To: Per Abrahamsen Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:7386 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:7386 > The only one we risk confusing is the programmer, not the user. The > programmer will need to understand all three, the variable for > customization, the automatically generated custom keymap, and the > normal keymap. Sounds like a nightmare! > > I think we should be trying to make customize _more_ of a thin UI > > layer on top of existing mechanisms, not less. > > That is a good idea if we believe that the difference between > the customization needs of a programmer and a non-programmer is merely > a matter of syntactic sugar. > > I am more interested in moving the other direction, and focus on > simplicity for the non-programmer, and generality for the programmer. > Emacs is _still_ not really customizable for non-programmers. I want it to be easy to use but I don't want the programmer to have to do anything extra for it (or as little as possible). The `defcustom' is a great example of it: to the programmer, it's just like `defvar', to the user it offers all kinds of benefits. I'm all in favor of `defkeymap', as long as its use is as simple (for the programmer) as (defvar foo-mode-map ...). If done right, it could be even better than (defvar foo-mode-map ...) just like `defface' is easier to use for the programmer than a set of `make-face' and `set-face-foo' calls. Stefan