From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stefan Monnier" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customize fringe Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:18:54 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <200205092118.g49LIsR17755@rum.cs.yale.edu> References: <877kmd7bf5.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp> <9003-Thu09May2002210730+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il> <200205091835.g49IZDZ17232@rum.cs.yale.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1020979288 28526 127.0.0.1 (9 May 2002 21:21:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 21:21:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Stefan Monnier" , "Eli Zaretskii" , miles@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 175vLs-0007Pz-00 for ; Thu, 09 May 2002 23:21:28 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 175vUe-0005dA-00 for ; Thu, 09 May 2002 23:30:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 175vLY-0000TY-00; Thu, 09 May 2002 17:21:08 -0400 Original-Received: from rum.cs.yale.edu ([128.36.229.169]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 175vJZ-0000Oi-00; Thu, 09 May 2002 17:19:05 -0400 Original-Received: (from monnier@localhost) by rum.cs.yale.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g49LIsR17755; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:18:54 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Original-To: Simon Josefsson X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rum.cs.yale.edu id g49LIsR17755 Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3787 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3787 > > See my previous post yesterday or the day before on a separate thread > > for why I don't think there should be a "toggle fringe" in the menu b= ar. > This was it: [...] No this was not it. It was: Subject: Re: Enhancements to options menu (was Re: Reveal mode) To: Thien-Thi Nguyen From: "Stefan Monnier" Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:37:08 -0400 Cc: "Stefan Monnier" , Pavel@Janik.cz (Pavel Jan=EDk), storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm), rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > "Stefan Monnier" writes: >=20 > I'm not sure whether those users were novices, but even if they were= , > that's not relevant. My point is that fringes are good and if a > novice removes them because she thinks she doesn't need them, she'll > probably hit problems later on because of it. We don't break Java's > memory safety just because some novice Java programmers might ask > "how do I do pointer arithmetic". >=20 > hmmm, you make it sound like turning off fringes incurs some kind of > threat to emacs' structural integrity or design, which would shock me i= f > it were true. [insert console-freak rantings here.] Admittedly, I forced the tone. But I just feel like users might miss on the neat fringes just because they think they don't want them. If you turn off the fringes you lose: - legibility (chars stuck right next to a window border are more difficul= t to read; the fringes act like a margin). - continuation glyphs (i.e. it's not the same as on console). - neat icons instead of overlayed text for the gud&edebug overlay arrow. - various future extensions like mouse bindings in the fringes. I don't think the tradeoffs are obvious to the first-time user (even if h= e's an experienced Emacs user) so she might make the wrong decision. This is to be contrasted to other "similar" things like the menu-bar, the tool-bar, the scroll-bar where the user can be reasonably expected to kno= w what she loses by turning it off. I'm not saying turning off the fringe should be a hidden feature. Just that it shouldn't be in the user's face. Stefan