From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:51:54 +0300 Message-ID: <1c8fed50-e124-6d62-466a-0392b9379e2e@yandex.ru> References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016213312.603595fe@argon> <20201017184036.12095175@argon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12389"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 Cc: Thibaut Verron , Richard Stallman , Jean Louis , emacs-devel To: Marcel Ventosa Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 17 21:53:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTsGR-00035f-LN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:53:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49014 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTsGQ-0005JC-83 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:53:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56604) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTsFH-0004pn-0e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:52:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x62e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::62e]:40794) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTsFE-0008DL-UP; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:52:02 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id z5so2493863ejw.7; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 12:51:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bzjVX+DGdhsL3rVdP7h2IFeUD2k5m6MZqFDa/hYag3k=; b=AwR4l8bmuLjpV446FZI8NrEykXO2bNG3NH/C/iKcgeLPp4T/uLPyIq1QZapoRhNE4t J7TPSW4xmjRzusugHLUs3CYEpoVw74iwBlC/kwTXYdVvfxv/GCosqi9t3Q3c1KSOEtDG yRWTTbwTe1+xMi3dzhlng2vBqpaps6XJDGLPSoURc8BWf8N3T6D+UOSORuogMl3uwRGz kD2jckyoLlw8TNzRSAOtIwHs6CmqyjLPJ84g1ae//JidB0O7Pinom3rlG0KfLdZ8xy1V rU7FFie7L7N3dvEGFesnTo+uM4pIgtNL04SJ3WE+swHUD1f8zZyEiS5dw4g7uI3IBOcO 0aZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bzjVX+DGdhsL3rVdP7h2IFeUD2k5m6MZqFDa/hYag3k=; b=EzkV4/bqN6Vo5gYb7bmQLnwA8qJjVnzV6nW5FdIF+t2YxuW6HR4J7aVVfWwOyOMyR2 DXr8Mz/IXYzFr+G7htYueSxVAuaHUtIsBlmN1Zyhcvf5nU/D/2HFvUtx3TqKSRfES/2R Njm2h7xiR6GBmtx8t92M1bBpW6DsLCcMhXrWn4ixBEBq6CpR1UKUU+vu9XqovUzkL3ry ZSSR4+Chby90pGSKm5uQnNe4Hl9PWhxJGrdy2uvOf1pL+GlDJV3DpNmav3uNEmgbcD0U lOflYDJcSXcdJfsk9b8nEe23GXsRffj53ZE83RQe5DQngkaC1P4Cz0wDmSnstXG5IVEP 3Baw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532CssfEKckURBmo1yPwp3u9jfm6h83FOwh9WYba9yFqExsZEp42 ixDbYJ/A7AZUvDeeYDsbS7oEd9p9vyfC8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzZeHf83zzXP6wPEn9+pEf1WOpkBRt6W5uPg9zXgTAl++OgxzRId51Sd4783rZmWszjPGR5CA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4bc2:: with SMTP id x2mr10223552ejv.525.1602964317048; Sat, 17 Oct 2020 12:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] ([66.205.71.3]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s29sm2631036edc.30.2020.10.17.12.51.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Oct 2020 12:51:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201017184036.12095175@argon> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.247, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257967 Archived-At: On 17.10.2020 14:40, Marcel Ventosa wrote: >> So we won't suggest ELPA as an option either? What about the users >> who don't know the difference? MELPA is also an ELPA, after all (as >> in "Emacs Lisp Package Archive"). > > Is it a survey then or is it an opportunity to "educate/advertise?" Somebody else already explained that a poll where only one of the options is written and others are free-form will be biased anyway. >>> I >>> would think it should be guided, for the most part, by what the people >>> putting their time into it want to create, within the principles of the >>> philosophy of the project and its goals. > >> It's not a painting or a novel. It's a software project, with certain >> expectations of practicality. > > Are you claiming Emacs is not practical? It's less practical than it could be. And you seem to be claiming it doesn't need to. >>> If they are not, Emacs makes it quite simple to implement changes for >>> personal "improvements". I have written functions that serve me >>> personally and change the behavior of Emacs to suit my needs. There are >>> limits to what I can do, which could be pushed if I dedicated a greater >>> effort to do so. How is that unfair? > >> You're veering the discussion off to the side for some reason. > > I'm explaining how easy it is to modify Emacs to suit particular needs, > and listing the possibilities that already exist for doing so. Why are you explaining that to an Emacs developer? >> But if we're talking of "unfair", releasing Emacs under GPL, enabling >> such excellent extensibility that multiple communities spring up over >> years, ones brimming with creativity and people dedicating years of >> their spare time to the extensions, and then badmouthing them from afar >> as though they violated some existing contract (social or legal), *that* >> is unfair. > > It is GNU policy not to promote or encourage proprietary software. Those are not objective words, but a matter of opinion, to say the least. > To > the extent that any community does so, GNU must not promote or encourage > that community. You are saying that, by mentioning MELPA is the poll, GNU would promote MELPA. Right? Are you promoting proprietary software by saying the phrase "proprietary software", over and over, on this mailing list? And even giving examples sometimes. > I fail to see what injustice has been perpetrated on the > MELPA maintainers here, or how they have been badmouthed. Saying "MELPA promotes proprietary software" is like saying that GNU project promotes, I don't know... late-stage capitalism. Just by the virtue of being mostly developed in a capitalist country, and by being useful to many organizations participating in capitalist economies with high degree of inequality. Or that it promotes proprietary software by providing support for some of it. Let's disregard its mission, and all virtues and accomplishments, shall we?