From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for a friendlier Emacs Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:11:07 +0000 Message-ID: <1EA63A1B-6FDB-4A03-A294-496B6C16C3BA@gnu.support> References: <83sgbd1qsz.fsf@gnu.org> <20200921171958.GB3551@protected.rcdrun.com> <20200922125938.oxrh5iqoatfshcnv@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38823"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 16:12:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKj21-0009yM-Rg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 16:12:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43102 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKj20-0004Zi-TW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 10:12:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44356) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKj0t-0003Ni-ET for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 10:11:24 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:39969) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKj0p-0005Nx-TB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 10:11:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [192.168.44.7] ([::ffff:197.157.0.18]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000056140.000000005F6A0602.00007AAF; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 07:11:13 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20200922125938.oxrh5iqoatfshcnv@Ergus> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/22 10:11:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256324 Archived-At: On September 22, 2020 12:59:38 PM UTC, Ergus wrote: >On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 08:19:58PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote: >>* Ergus [2020-09-20 03:45]: >>> There have been too many years of licences nobody reads and msoffice >useless splash=2E So people now install the programs just pressing next >next next accept=2E >>> >>> The problem is that 90% of the cases the information there is pretty >useless (publicity, license, offers for an account) so most people >assume that in our case it will be the same and usually ignores that=2E >> >>I am not sure how you come to seach information, as it is very >>general=2E I could present Emacs to various people and see if they have >>read the splash screen, and then after 5 or 10 attempts, I could have >>statistics, who read what, if they found that there is Tutorial or >>not, or what else they remembered and if they have read the splash >>page=2E >> >>With 100 people in the test, such information would be valuable >>statistics=2E >> > >>Without mass of people tested randomly, it is harder to say that >splash >>is useless for people because it was maybe useless for one msoffice >>user=2E >> >>I can speak for myself, as it is hard to speak for others, so I know >>that I was reading licenses of proprietary software before 1999, and I >>know that I was reading everything that Emacs had to offer, from >>splash screen, Tutorials in few languages, and GNU news and anything >>else, I did read it, and that is how I got fascinated with the free >>software=2E >> >So you are probably more the exception than the rule=2E As you can see >nobody these days reads the licenses anymore, not even the tutorials I am only asking you to be specific, like from where exactly do you draw t= hat information they majority of nobody reads licenses? Is there a survey result whereby at least 1000 people have been asked if t= hey have read the license or tutorial and in which specific area for which = specific group of people? I know that in Germany we, and I mean my free friends, have been reading l= icense as we were concerned what we can do with proprietary software, if we= can make copy for ourselves and if we were allowed to share our install on= multiple computers, and later me and my close friends discovered GNU deriv= ed distributions and became happy that license now allowed us=2E I can spea= k for few close people that I know=2E And in organization that I worked, th= e licensing was very much controlled, as we did not want to shift anyone's = rights=2E As teenager I was clicking through licenses and used warez and whatever I = could without paying any license and reading such=2E I do not know you, I am 47, what is your age? I don't know if by saying that nobody reads licenses you refer to nobody t= eenager interested to play games, or you refer to Tanzanian student who wil= l not care of any license because there will be no enforcement, or you refe= r to average German trader who needs software professionally=2E I know how to make a survey and how to evaluate a survey results, and if n= one was made, even if it was made, days shall be based on such survey=2E=20 > I just say that nobody knows what is =20 > written in the >license or the splash screen=2E Consider also that most of the people in >the world are nor English speakers > either=2E I know you write that but I don't see fusion of such a statement=2E Did yo= u count number of people not reading licenses and how that was measured, wh= at group of people and in which geographic locations? Without proper survey result, I don't share your opinion, just contrary, I= know that today there is more free software then ever, and speaking from G= erman and of good knowledge of Western European part of the world, I know t= hat those people introduced to free software were especially interested in = licensing terms=2E=20 As a speaker on seminars about GNU/Linux systems, attendees in Stuttgart M= ediothek, were interested in licensing terms and felt liberated, and I can = say they probably read licenses, but I have not controlled them, as a speak= er, from their questions I know they were interested=2E Do you have more specific data?