From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Reitter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: bzr is dying; Emacs needs to move Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 15:03:17 -0500 Message-ID: <1E291357-1D17-4AF2-A94A-85F85FC7F836@gmail.com> References: <20140102095347.6834E381D0C@snark.thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.1 \(1827\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388779406 18802 80.91.229.3 (3 Jan 2014 20:03:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2014 20:03:26 +0000 (UTC) To: "emacs-devel@gnu.org developers" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 03 21:03:34 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VzAxx-0004Ko-UY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 21:03:34 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51581 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzAxx-000809-HU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:03:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39154) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzAxq-000802-Ro for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:03:31 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzAxm-0005hm-F4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:03:26 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-qc0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c01::234]:36294) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzAxm-0005hW-BB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 15:03:22 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-qc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id w7so15384012qcr.39 for ; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:03:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=u4hC6v+Q0QAeRgtrJYiDbH57gvCC38yYadnBwPkhIlY=; b=WufbvXC8yvPOCy3J44Uv7qYm+QfOBdLJoFCM6/iINoTl3eYUPkXjJt4WNxxXdiUmMy JBkw3MGC2Uf6flz9FxKHRq3r8dV5+WdgTRF1ZXvsjxC+lT+CVvtrNq0M4MoJJpj6/ZTt D2Vp6SCx9L6c5cUL/GZLa0g/FSXIz9PK87STrZAnCTO+kodReYPEA6upaGtTSqf4NK0L P32qRptyzKjh2xVdZhUsEL35WFhDdRzG5JII5OhOMl+DIG6OW5a8Teum4gOV+/jSGcMd XlWodBvIuqIPBuAM6cZfI1ScMuNtnB+V+ZQhPS/BFdRZ4acyCSMIn3tK3BPiqImOWXLT SLIg== X-Received: by 10.49.106.37 with SMTP id gr5mr153615458qeb.75.1388779399503; Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:03:19 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from www01.para.ist.psu.edu ([130.203.154.138]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id o5sm91828579qeg.2.2014.01.03.12.03.18 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Jan 2014 12:03:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140102095347.6834E381D0C@snark.thyrsus.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1827) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167215 Archived-At: In support of the proposal: 1. Yes, please switch to git. 2. I am someone who had commit access in CVS days, but stopped making my = small contributions when bzr was introduced, following extensive tries = to adopt bzr for Aquamacs or to use it for small, infrequent = contributions. It didn't seem worth the effort. 3. Please use the official mirror as a basis. It's a good mirror. = Anything else would be a PITA for downstream developers and anyone who = maintains a separate git branch of Emacs. After 50 merges from the = mainline and >4500 commits, rebasing to preserve history seems like a = big deal. 4. The Changelog files are a frequent cause of conflicts. "git log = --grep=3D" is fast. What is the use? On Jan 2, 2014, at 4:53 AM, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > I am posting this because I think it is my duty as a topic expert in > version-control systems and the surrounding tools to do so, not = because > I have any desire to be in the argument that is certain to ensue. >=20 > The bzr version control system is dying; by most measures it is > already moribund. The dev list has flatlined, most of Canonical's > in-house projects have abandoned bzr for git, and one of its senior > developers has written a remarkably candid assessment of why bzr > failed: >=20 > http://www.stationary-traveller.eu/pages/bzr-a-retrospective.html >=20 > I urge all Emacs developers to read this, then sleep on it, then read > it again - not least because I think Emacs development has fallen into > some of the same traps the author decribes. But *that* is a = discussion for > another day; the conversation we need to have now is about escaping > the gravitational pull of bzr's failure. >=20 > In theory, that failure need not affect us at all providing the bzr > codebase is sufficently mature to continue in use as a production > tool. I judge that, in fact, it *is* sufficiently mature. >=20 > In practice, I judge that sticking with bzr would have social and > signaling effects damaging to Emacs's prospects. Sticking to a=20 > moribund version-control system will compound and exacerbate the=20 > project's difficulty in attracting new talent. >=20 > The uncomfortable truth is that many younger hackers already think > Emacs is a dinosaur - difficult, bulky, armor-plated, and generally > stuck in the last century. If we're going to fight off that image, we > cannot afford to make or adhere to choices that further cast the > project as crusty, insular, and backward-looking. >=20 > As of right about now, continuing with bzr is such a choice. We'll > lose potential recruits, not merely because bzr has a learning cost > but because crusty, insular, etc. The opportunity cost of not getting > out will only rise with time. >=20 > git won the mindshare war. I regret this - I would have preferred > Mercurial, but it too is not looking real healthy these days. I have > made my peace with git's victory and switched. I urge the Emacs > project to do likewise. >=20 > I can be technical lead on the migration - as the author of > reposurgeon I have the skills and experience for that (I recently > moved GNU troff from CVS to git). But the project leadership needs > to make the go decision first. > --=20 > Eric S. = Raymond >=20 > No one who's seen it in action can say the phrase "government help" = without > either laughing or crying. >=20