From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 21:36:30 +0900 Message-ID: <1BF9B6F5-C3C6-4A31-9935-4AD8FD359A3D@icloud.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="81126"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Philippe Vaucher , Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: =?utf-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 14:37:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUrON-000L0G-EG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 14:37:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47352 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUrOM-0001rp-Hu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:37:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33430) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUrNl-0001RT-7m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:36:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUrNj-0000n4-PE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:36:36 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10012001.me.com ([17.58.6.51]:40993) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUrNj-0000iL-9O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:36:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1588422993; bh=9PD6rMYornJbN4VEzG6xnA+WMV887NvOsB92QeJS7SU=; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Date:Message-Id:To; b=zMYYyhhR3wQe1GFtV5puSOmRfra0OWiUBioVXEgPuKE1/q5yBsm1IoO6itfV71DK/ ntYev/BjYCjFyCdCXfK5htowfaIrxCLvGOhDHQng3VSvpVKhOYFp82yJ8IkYtebRwX Gq4LFIBZApVwzbXHGnajxnEvyp8JeMI+2/iC6tE2ysQbt22fTF6/3ImKMd2Z3UP60m fVnAs0G96rAZcPvpmM2bDpeRO6/Yg0gujci1NzSIeYe04EEQeaMVvGLoEFQPXPmeSk u7BYFkiSfisgqHEq7QzHIUSi8EyjGV0sfvuwEsmEjNSnHuYLhQPgMiC23CN1D9AQPx esieOiOHPHywQ== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.101] (unknown [218.153.67.143]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10012001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1667428049A; Sat, 2 May 2020 12:36:33 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17E262) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-05-02_06:2020-05-01, 2020-05-02 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=658 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2005020115 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.51; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10012001.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/02 08:36:33 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.51 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248420 Archived-At: > 2020. 5. 2. =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 9:21, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Sat, May 2, 2020 at 1:11 PM =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> 2020. 5. 2. =EC=98=A4=ED=9B=84 9:03, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora =EC=9E=91=EC=84=B1: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >>> On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:40 PM Philippe Vaucher wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't it be much e= asier if the language itself was self-documenting? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition. And you= >>>>> will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow >>>>> accustomed to. Imagine if I told you the French language should now >>>>> also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're >>>>> just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you= >>>>> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones.= >>=20 >> But they would have to learn to read programs in the new stuff, no? >>=20 >>=20 >> Well learning the new stuff will be much easier & predictive if done well= (and that=E2=80=99s the point). >=20 > OK, but don't you think it's a little presumptuous to assume that? > To assume that people will find (your) new language easier make > space for it in their minds? Languages, especially the general > purpose parts of language, are very personal and cultural. Can't > you see how this has certain echoes of proclaiming a certain > new-age culture superior to an older one? I can=E2=80=99t find how adding consistency is a =E2=80=98new-age culture=E2= =80=99. I think I can understand this opinion if this thread is about some s= hiny new features or changing to better defaults =E2=80=94 but why is consis= tent function names a =E2=80=98new-age culture=E2=80=99? For an example from the =E2=80=98old culture=E2=80=99... (I can=E2=80=99t sa= y that C has a good consistent std, but) look C=E2=80=99s =E2=80=94= all string function names start with =E2=80=98str=E2=80=99, memory manipula= tion function names start with =E2=80=98mem=E2=80=99 and wide variants are p= refixed with =E2=80=98w=E2=80=99. Then comes a short abbreviation. Pretty co= nsistent, and IMHO more predictable than elisp. > Certainly, this is > just software and not exactly world domination, but still... >=20 > Jo=C3=A3o