From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:52:34 -0400 Message-ID: <18E66F55-A192-4D18-B517-55BD1270EB89@gmail.com> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83lfhjkq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <83y2lghkvj.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0CD227AD-A3FB-4E14-83E4-845190BCC7F7" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18944"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: self@gkayaalp.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 15:54:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGjVM-0004kY-SV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:54:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43324 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGjVL-0005OD-Ny for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:54:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34438) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGjTk-0003mF-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:52:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]:41200) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGjTi-0005S8-By; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:52:40 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id g72so9884121qke.8; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:52:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=1fNbyj8s0y5mNYcpf3xk7vdK7h2UO1z8mc19njvuopQ=; b=a0NRzrXaedpvyw1xTXGT52odwCkMDQwYdTa9npbkpDXjR8EH+LxtFqYYlvbM/vk8+W eMTAKKyt3xEh7FBYzoIOHM2ozt1Ags2JAWNh7RPtNqVP4i+0J3z+C+hOB7AsYujl/gu8 zGb9OLsvMRc02W8JDlW4CslCs/RxmMQ3tFUZHp5rQJLFzYoq1Ot68xZl6MLfq0kEabMn lH2oP0AqtqW2kA/oqdYwh+jHnOIADNGmKSO0hrq99lKqcAnQJbUUo5AKA2hqISMVS5pj Jbjgju5u6q8J/6+16S183ZECkIkmQz8lWf7+G/EWT20UTQljv7xhoJmYEBnzc+PzGIyB jysw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=1fNbyj8s0y5mNYcpf3xk7vdK7h2UO1z8mc19njvuopQ=; b=oO8gCY19Vvsd5D6Zu92gqG2nesyNYsX9I8TvdYjzUOj1JJ+6C0+uyzHcrCOVrV1aYS CQkeLfGefCl+IbUMKSP7ly5/+mQBGueYjinLiLZ53v7GS+FTNfQD8vb0uTxxbfuTR4KE /sg7jajlE+L3E3m0ReH2qwx4Xq+2o2PgunUard1uz1mX8T+S/YPgJ3mmjfrHbI1uZt78 htKMLNpRAnqlobQfn8olgHkc7W3va7rgZCJ6pCoEQZaGJ6djvsROamTHQ8fOrDaEBtmR yU0CNIFuj9a1Het4lfOxukqYMFEnjjlDf3gV44G2aae3Z79djY9pstENuvoUgeBnEt7m KYvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531+qpxo/9lv2fXH43Qg4ubF+HCRopVsIk0qFX328JYQsRHJMTFu pEpFw6FEsJWDjaJvryXeRkeu0w6gmUfJ0qde X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJymH6lAWrjdKeDscdqL4n+dmGSiJQFQ8QBxHsqBaG1jTR6Yd9EjNkIPJ3Y/QTjOyxROQfW42A== X-Received: by 2002:a37:794:: with SMTP id 142mr1626587qkh.114.1599832356323; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?IPv6:2601:98a:4200:9210:2079:6e36:6ee4:49e3? ([2601:98a:4200:9210:2079:6e36:6ee4:49e3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u2sm2892234qkf.61.2020.09.11.06.52.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Sep 2020 06:52:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83y2lghkvj.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x72c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255171 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_0CD227AD-A3FB-4E14-83E4-845190BCC7F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 > I think it could be a good idea to ask users, yes. However, "for the > first few minutes" is not a good criterion, IMO: we want to provide a > facility for easily finding important options for users who already > use Emacs for weeks, maybe months. The options "for the first few > minutes" are supposed to be on the Options menu already. >=20 I felt that people are most confused on the first few minutes of using = Emacs, but I won=E2=80=99t argue this before asked for real experience = on reddit. >>> The grouping of the options must be based on some "themes" or = similar, >>> to be useful. The challenge is, of course, to come up with a useful >>> list of such "themes", and then decide which options should each = theme >>> enable. >>=20 >> Others has described the out-of-the-box experience of doom Emacs, it = seems to me that such job is better done by a =E2=80=9Cdistribution=E2=80=9D= of Emacs than by vanilla Emacs. >=20 > "Better" in what sense? What do the people who maintain Spacemacs or > DOOM know about Emacs that we don't? They can do things we can=E2=80=99t. They can bundle MELPA packages, = they can set various defaults, they can promote one package over = another, they can bundle a bunch of helper commands and configurations. >=20 >> OTHO, vanilla Emacs could add a tiny guide like I proposed to more or = less improve the life for those who started Emacs without reading any = tutorial on the internet. >=20 > Sorry to be negative, but based on experience I have hard time > believing in such guides: people who are involved in Emacs development > are much better coding than writing good documentation, let alone > tutorial documentation for newbies. Let's do what we do best: produce > features that make it easier to discover and turn on popular features. I welcome such profile functionality, that will be very nice. In the = mean time, a guide still has its place: how would a new user know he can = choose a profile otherwise? You can add a menu button or a link on the = slash screen, but I doubt if anything can beat a guide on = discoverability.=20 Not being good at writing tutorial for newbie is one thing, not doing it = is another thing. If we want Emacs to be more newbie-friendly, we should = have a friendly introduction built-in. Yuan --Apple-Mail=_0CD227AD-A3FB-4E14-83E4-845190BCC7F7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

I think it could be a good idea to ask users, yes. =  However, "for the
first few minutes" is not a good criterion, IMO: we want to = provide a
facility for easily finding important options for users who = already
use Emacs for weeks, maybe months.  The options "for the = first few
minutes" are supposed to be on the Options menu = already.


I felt that people are most confused on the first = few minutes of using Emacs, but I won=E2=80=99t argue this before asked = for real experience on reddit.

The grouping of the = options must be based on some "themes" or similar,
to be = useful.  The challenge is, of course, to come up with a useful
list of such "themes", and then decide which options should = each theme
enable.

Others has described the out-of-the-box experience of doom = Emacs, it seems to me that such job is better done by a = =E2=80=9Cdistribution=E2=80=9D of Emacs than by vanilla Emacs.

"Better" in what sense?  What do the people who maintain = Spacemacs or
DOOM know about Emacs that we don't?

They = can do things we can=E2=80=99t. They can bundle MELPA packages, they can = set various defaults, they can promote one package over another, they = can bundle a bunch of helper commands and configurations.


OTHO, vanilla Emacs could add a tiny = guide like I proposed to more or less improve the life for those who = started Emacs without reading any tutorial on the internet.

Sorry to be negative, but based on experience I have hard = time
believing in such guides: people who are involved in Emacs = development
are much better coding than writing good documentation, let = alone
tutorial documentation for newbies.  Let's do what we do = best: produce
features that make it easier to discover and turn on popular = features.

I welcome = such profile functionality, that will be very nice. In the mean time, a = guide still has its place: how would a new user know he can choose a = profile otherwise? You can add a menu button or a link on the slash = screen, but I doubt if anything can beat a guide on = discoverability. 

Not being = good at writing tutorial for newbie is one thing, not doing it is = another thing. If we want Emacs to be more newbie-friendly, we should = have a friendly introduction built-in.

Yuan

= --Apple-Mail=_0CD227AD-A3FB-4E14-83E4-845190BCC7F7--