From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Default behaviour of RET. Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1878e4fa-50f2-4655-a4ff-30d1db708ee8@default> References: > <8361sqli02.fsf@gnu.org>> <1730ebf3-db44-498c-b2a9-4d288d83a946@default> <87k3h6xuen.fsf@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1382388842 20405 80.91.229.3 (21 Oct 2013 20:54:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:54:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rudalics@gmx.at, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, Eli Zaretskii , stephen@xemacs.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 21 22:54:04 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VYMUF-0003x3-Or for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 22:54:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41803 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYMUF-0000nZ-8Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:54:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYMU4-0000nQ-4r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:54:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYMTv-0004Lk-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:53:51 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36653) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VYMTm-0004K4-7M; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:53:34 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r9LKrS79011409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:53:29 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7022.oracle.com (aserz7022.oracle.com [141.146.126.231]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9LKrQRt012846 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:53:27 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt109.oracle.com (abhmt109.oracle.com [141.146.116.61]) by aserz7022.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r9LKrQbV005375; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 20:53:26 GMT In-Reply-To: <87k3h6xuen.fsf@yandex.ru> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:164434 Archived-At: > >> I want a key that is easily reached and that > >> performs newline-and-indent. Every modern IDE does that. > > > > Emacs does that too, with `C-j'. Easily reached by most, I think. >=20 > Every IDE does that when the user presses RET. Not if you count Emacs as an IDE. ;-) > The question is what would be the sane default. The default Emacs behavior for this is quite sane, and has been so for almost 40 years now. That it is not the same as the default behavior of this or that other application does not make the Emacs default behavior insane. > > Sorry, I'm with Richard on this one. You seem to be viewing a > > local mole hill (if even that) from a foreign vantage point and > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > seeing a mountain. > > You seem to be under impression that Eli is somehow new to using > Emacs. You seem to be fantasizing. The "foreign vantage point" is an outside view, nothing more. That is the argument, no? "All the other guys are doing it another way." If you view Emacs `C-j' from the point of view of "every IDE" then I guess it is possible to find it "much less convenient" than `RET'. Otherwise, it is not. Maybe it is a very teeny tiny bit less convenient - only a mole hill, at most. Certainly not "much less" convenient. If it were then Emacs would never have adopted `C-j' for this often-used command. Do you think those who did so felt that it was "much less convenient" but went ahead and made it the default anyway? Or do you think that they were insensitive to user convenience? There is nothing new that makes the difference in convenience between `C-j' and `RET' any greater now than it has been at any point in the past. Exactly the same difference: same mole hill. For Emacs, `C-j' has been considered convenient for this behavior for a very long time. And I, for one, still find it convenient. It doesn't get much more convenient than `C-j'. Circulez ; il n'y a rien a voir.