From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Aidan Kehoe Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GTK file selector Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:21:27 +0100 Message-ID: <17316.36711.500818.283095@parhasard.net> References: <1134552456.439fe58850f31@imp5-g19.free.fr> <878xuma53q.fsf@jurta.org> <17313.37186.344268.487103@parhasard.net> <87d5jxsgib.fsf@jurta.org> <17314.42778.220813.47226@parhasard.net> <17315.7877.155144.973236@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> <85irtoadgf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87lkyk62zc.fsf@marant.org> <85acf0a9zx.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87zmmzoov9.fsf@marant.org> <853bkr92a0.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1134858181 26735 80.91.229.2 (17 Dec 2005 22:23:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:23:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 17 23:23:00 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnkQv-0006fA-I5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 23:21:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnkRg-0002Vi-Ts for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:22:28 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EnkRV-0002VT-Hc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:22:17 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EnkRV-0002VH-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:22:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnkRU-0002VE-W2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:22:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [66.111.49.30] (helo=icarus.asclepian.ie) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EnkU9-0004am-Dg; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:25:01 -0500 Original-Received: by icarus.asclepian.ie (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 931238008D; Sat, 17 Dec 2005 22:21:27 +0000 (GMT) Original-To: David Kastrup In-Reply-To: <853bkr92a0.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.4 (patch 17) "Jumbo Shrimp" XEmacs Lucid X-Echelon-distraction: TDM. SUKLO ISEP EPL ISSSP Recon OADR X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:47966 Archived-At: My perception is that XEmacs=E2=80=99 main problems are manpower and GNU compatibility, GNU Emacs=E2=80=99 main problem is management. GNU Emacs d= oesn=E2=80=99t lack manpower or mailing list activity compared to say, Perl or GCC. That said= -- Ar an seacht=C3=BA l=C3=A1 d=C3=A9ag de m=C3=AD na Nollaig, scr=C3=ADobh= David Kastrup:=20 > > I'm not promoting anything but IMHO XEmacs did it right from the > > very beginning by focusing on what users expect the most from, that > > is user interface: >=20 > But we are not talking about the user interface here. We are talking > about the release process. All that is relevant in that regard is: >=20 > > a package system. >=20 > And as I said, the overall effect does not seem too convincing to me. > Many packages have not even caught up to the state of Emacs-21. I > actually had quite a bit of fallout with the XEmacs developers over > integrating AUCTeX as a package into XEmacs. Your falling out out was an artifact of the details of our package system= , not of having a package system in itself. Our package system is too centralised, and oriented towards XEmacs committers to easily accommodate what you wanted to do. The package system does work better than the monolithic alternative, users do see finished code quicker.=20 > > I'd even say that there are enough features for most end users. >=20 > But we are not talking about "features", but usability, both for users > and programmers. Whenever I have had contact with XEmacs, lot of the > stuff was unusable to me. Documentation and stuff of the features > tends to be so bad that it is hard to programmatically interface to > it. Those features just don't get used. >=20 > As an example: when working with preview-latex, it was found that > images displayed from a binary file format were garbled when dired was > loaded. This was analyzed and reported by a programmer in our project > who subsequently went silent. Several years later, nobody had > bothered fixing the stuff. I don't think it is fixed even now. Yup. We lack manpower. I should be writing code and documentation now, no= t this mail. But I=E2=80=99m not making a living from XEmacs, I=E2=80=99m d= oing what I do in my spare time, so a certain amount of indulging whims is reasonable. > Now I think you will agree that displaying images are sort of a > feature for which XEmacs was renowned (this does not concern the > normal icons and toolbars who are read from a non-binary image > format), and dired is pretty basic. >=20 > And yet, nobody apparently used this functionality for years and > years. A lot of the stuff in XEmacs is like that: implemented, and > left unused because it has, maybe because of the roughness of APIs and > documentation, not been tied into any application in frequent use. And maybe because anything implemented using the XEmacs-specific APIs wil= l never run on GNU Emacs, so coders tend to put off writing code to use a feature until that feature makes it into GNU Emacs, at which point XEmacs provides a compatibility API--the reverse is never true. Eminently ration= al behaviour. [...] --=20 I AM IN JAIL AND ALLOWED SEND ONLY ONE CABLE SINCE WAS ARRESTED WHILE MEASURING FIFTEEN FOOT WALL OUTSIDE PALACE AND HAVE JUST FINISHED COUNTIN= G THIRTY EIGHT THOUSAND FIVE HUNDERED TWENTY TWO NAMES WHOS WHO IN MIDEAST.