From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Aidan Kehoe Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GTK file selector Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 12:38:02 +0100 Message-ID: <17314.42778.220813.47226@parhasard.net> References: <1134552456.439fe58850f31@imp5-g19.free.fr> <878xuma53q.fsf@jurta.org> <17313.37186.344268.487103@parhasard.net> <87d5jxsgib.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1134745904 29266 80.91.229.2 (16 Dec 2005 15:11:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 15:11:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 16 16:11:41 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnHE5-0004im-67 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:10:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnHEl-000431-TV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:11:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EnEq8-0001E7-7t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:37:36 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EnEmN-0000Wd-QM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 07:33:58 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EnDvD-00046c-OB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:38:50 -0500 Original-Received: from [66.111.49.30] (helo=icarus.conall.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EnDxd-00032l-8k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 06:41:17 -0500 Original-Received: by icarus.conall.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 4F10C8008D; Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:38:02 +0000 (GMT) Original-To: Juri Linkov In-Reply-To: <87d5jxsgib.fsf@jurta.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.4 (patch 17) "Jumbo Shrimp" XEmacs Lucid X-Echelon-distraction: SIW Duress GRU PARKHILL 1911 S.A.I.C. X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:47856 Archived-At: Ar an s=C3=A9=C3=BA l=C3=A1 d=C3=A9ag de m=C3=AD na Nollaig, scr=C3=ADob= h Juri Linkov:=20 > > > What an irony that the goal of Gnome developers was to design an > > > easy-to-use file dialog, and now no one can use it without hints > > > acquired from others. > > > > It=E2=80=99s an irony if you ignore that their goal was to design a = dialog that > > was easy to use for naive users. >=20 > I doubt very much that removing useful features to make a simplistic U= I > will persuade naive users to use the Gnome environment. =20 Making a UI that=E2=80=99s no more complicated than it needs to be may, a= nd that=E2=80=99s what they=E2=80=99ve done for the na=C3=AFve user. They=E2=80=99ve made i= t more awkward for the expert, but for mass-market software, the expert doesn=E2=80=99t matter.=20 However, I believe that the comparative advantage from Gnome=E2=80=99s ne= w-found simplicity won=E2=80=99t outweigh the endorsement from Linus for KDE; ind= eed, the endorsement from=C2=A0Linus for one environment over the other might be t= he impetus needed for KDE to pull ahead as the dominant desktop environment, and finally having a standard desktop environment would be an excellent thing. > So I still don't understand what is the target audience of Gnome > developers. >=20 > > In 2005, naive users do not use any form of emacs, in general, >=20 > By analogy with GTK2 dialog windows, removing features from Emacs > to make it similar to Notepad will make naive users happy :-) Do you not understand what the GTK2 people did? They didn=E2=80=99t remov= e features, it=E2=80=99s just as possible to use the new dialog box in the same way a= s the old. Less obvious for what experts want to do, but experts are experts, they=E2= =80=99ll figure it out.=20 And yes, making GNU Emacs behave more like a Win32 app, like Notepad, _wi= ll_ make na=C3=AFve users happy. Look at the success of CUA-mode. Hang round = with Win32 users looking for an advanced editor, and they=E2=80=99ll go for No= tepad++ long before GNU Emacs, because all their habits from Notepad work in Notepad++, and not in emacs. Emacs is more featureful, but not enough to overcome the pain of finding out what CUA-mode is and doing all the other donkey-work to have the editor behave like what they=E2=80=99re used to.=20 > > and even the experts are abandoning it today. >=20 > Why do they abandon it? And what do they prefer instead? They abandon it because of stagnant development, the design and implementation clusterfuck that is Mule from the perspective of European language users (search for =C3=B6 not working again!) and minimal conside= ration for GUI users in this age of 17" screens. Among other reasons.=20 Eclipse, VIM or Notepad++ seem to be what most of the power users I know = who chose an advanced editor recently are using. --=20 I AM IN JAIL AND ALLOWED SEND ONLY ONE CABLE SINCE WAS ARRESTED WHILE MEASURING FIFTEEN FOOT WALL OUTSIDE PALACE AND HAVE JUST FINISHED COUNTIN= G THIRTY EIGHT THOUSAND FIVE HUNDERED TWENTY TWO NAMES WHOS WHO IN MIDEAST.