From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Aidan Kehoe Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta Subject: Re: thoughts on interaction of key bindings and input methods (was Re: wish: right alt/meta to switch keyboard layout while pressed) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:35:13 +0100 Message-ID: <17289.64609.815397.99388@parhasard.net> References: <200511222150.54248.pogonyshev@gmx.net> <200511261925.20191.pogonyshev@gmx.net> <17288.41589.506361.323637@parhasard.net> <200511270101.56195.pogonyshev@gmx.net> <43891060.2070405@666.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1133116715 10759 80.91.229.2 (27 Nov 2005 18:38:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:38:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: XEmacs Beta , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Paul Pogonyshev Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 27 19:38:33 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgROB-0005Pt-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:36:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgROA-0002Cb-Ad for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:36:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EgRMs-0001Uj-QM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:35:18 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EgRMr-0001To-83 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:35:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EgRMq-0001TZ-M5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:35:16 -0500 Original-Received: from [66.111.49.30] (helo=icarus.conall.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EgRMq-0003G8-L4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:35:16 -0500 Original-Received: by icarus.conall.net (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 270EA8008D; Sun, 27 Nov 2005 18:35:14 +0000 (GMT) Original-To: Ben Wing In-Reply-To: <43891060.2070405@666.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.17 under 21.4 (patch 17) "Jumbo Shrimp" XEmacs Lucid X-Echelon-distraction: TRD CCSC Comirex Kilo Class Capricorn Sardine X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:46660 gmane.emacs.xemacs.beta:21240 Archived-At: Ar an s=C3=A9=C3=BA l=C3=A1 is fiche de m=C3=AD na Samhain, scr=C3=ADobh= Ben Wing:=20 > this is what i call the "russian c-x problem". at one point i had=20 > worked out what the correct thing to do is, and there are various=20 > comments to this effect in XEmacs; but i never finished it. it looks=20 > like aidan went ahead and implemented it, though, right, aidan? Yes. I=E2=80=99ve never tested the the Win32 support, though--it looks li= ke your implementation is complete, but I couldn=E2=80=99t say if it works or not= .=20 > [...] note also that this algorithm *does* use the locale of the curre= nt=20 > buffer; this is certainly possible under windows, where there is an=20 > explicit api to query both the physical and logical keyboard. The X11 side of things doesn=E2=80=99t. It just supplies Qwerty as an alt= ernative.=20 Win32 locale support in general is much superior, and providing the same level of functionality in pure X11 is just impossible. There is no locale= -> key layout mapping available, for a start.=20 > it also seems that alphabetic and non-alphabetic keys should (perhaps)= =20 > behave differently. What I take from this response from Paul -- > >>-- If you see M-; listed as a key binding, is the first thing that > >>occurs to you to type Alt+Shift+8? Or would you go for Alt+=D0=B6, s= ince =D0=B6 > >>is where ; is on the US keyboard? Should we accept both? > > > >I can't say which would be the most natural thing to hit, because few= apps > >but Emacs use such extravagant shortcuts. is that we have to support this processing for punctuation as well as for alphanumeric characters. If he doesn=E2=80=99t know which would be the mo= st natural thing to hit, then people in general will hit both, and as well as that, lots of ASCII punctuation just isn=E2=80=99t available on a Russian keybo= ard. (This position is different from what I thought when I implemented the X11 supp= ort in the first place, btw.) It=E2=80=99s not that reasonable to make forwar= d-word available by default but not ispell-word, just because ispell-word uses t= he dollar sign. > [..] (with alphabetic keys, it is semi-feasible to search the keyboard= in > front of me to find the keys, but this is just impossible for > punctuation.) This is my experience too, strangely enough, since there=E2=80=99s no rea= sonable ground for punctuation being much harder to find than letters.=20 Okay, I=E2=80=99ve just posted code to xemacs-patches@xemacs.org that tak= es into account what Paul said, and moves the fallback mapping from raw X11 keyco= des to the US layout to hardware-specific Lisp, which is where it should be. = I=E2=80=99d love to have some commentary on it.=20 > >The only plausible generic solution I can think of is to track the > >layout for each buffer separately. This may be very difficult to > >impossible to implement with external layout switching. And that's > >precisely the reason why I prefer to use Emacs' own input methods > >switched by `C-\'. This means that I have to use different layout > >switching methods in Emacs and elsewhere, but the advantages are more > >important for me. I get what you mean there; there are three or four input methods that I regularly use, and being able to switch to a specific one with C-u C-\, without messing around with character maps, makes my life significantly easier. Indeed, I find myself typing IPA into XEmacs and pasting it into other applications--admittedly I do use a local hack to get the glyphs to display, so in general it=E2=80=99s not any better than GNU Emacs for thi= s. --=20 I AM IN JAIL AND ALLOWED SEND ONLY ONE CABLE SINCE WAS ARRESTED WHILE MEASURING FIFTEEN FOOT WALL OUTSIDE PALACE AND HAVE JUST FINISHED COUNTIN= G THIRTY EIGHT THOUSAND FIVE HUNDERED TWENTY TWO NAMES WHOS WHO IN MIDEAST.