From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stepping Back: A Wealth Of Completion systems Re: [ELPA] New package: vertico Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 02:12:51 +0300 Message-ID: <16784f40-b959-9a84-65d4-93b71d1bebec@yandex.ru> References: <9c9af088-580f-9fb1-4d79-237a74ce605c@inventati.org> <874kgkxxs0.fsf@posteo.net> <78741fe6-2612-d7c9-2bc4-0b68ea7fa51a@yandex.ru> <76a4d0e2-117b-165d-d56e-5bc2f504b50c@yandex.ru> <87blapln0r.fsf@posteo.net> <37bd2e96-ce04-eb6d-24da-fdd7ea427e61@yandex.ru> <87im4wx2ct.fsf@posteo.net> <83ft0080hi.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8145"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 Cc: philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 10 01:13:36 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lV0Jk-00022F-4R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 10 Apr 2021 01:13:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51242 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lV0Jj-0003Lc-67 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:13:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33702) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lV0J8-0002vD-0k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:12:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::432]:38732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lV0J6-0006LN-0a; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 19:12:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id w4so3346553wrt.5; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5z08zoYo3odgExiHNdfkxhYkTWNnrfCMZd7phS/G388=; b=WQHdpYyhDUmGFQbGsZ16Wp3otpKiQfg9nmUW2uw3v09Hhgoh+9RGAn8Nc9yBdJEPSS 5Bfz2Z7xkgdkWf8+YHN+AvjozV6WIl5v2EHgNrrcIsNxnrO14u83e72JrSY0n4i4smeV eeo+vSy7KihLRe3OOaj23fMcPdMyM26vvagsqpKcm/juNOHTrEIEbVFSvtApEuD//Acq A5o+2YY8TVb64GP9iM/UNaleMjVGtPd9DIhuugUpE1VzXFU99VOuSDGncViW2E0gegVU VCkD0DRCWRPDq7U1IaVjkdV6J2+NCGEkPHByhR+LHQUv/Ox5LCA6pneEG0hPz2QChEBU t2bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5z08zoYo3odgExiHNdfkxhYkTWNnrfCMZd7phS/G388=; b=eP3TJCgpTG6xBzV+J7LWM727Yz2dQYywCS7p3tIFSpgukHka9MRtJh2J/gsOAEp9t3 iaG+AAHSs1qPoQMZdeB+Tl0T/MzL7Qlcj/nqQfJs2x2R1dkQUQf8m4VZarOOslVFhnNA IfzY2dzO/ka0ydFStqigduf4pFi5oxV5o+iVG3WauCAWC3iPH6XjNnyLmnIWV2vqWbpb Poh7y2JI3hkcg73fEBYw19ITLaFTGlWkMH221fA4dgJrEj5/X7D08mm/XLr+ZxQ1c32C 0oVv/CCdnxF+ieNr1i57+qVUL7xrpulU+HsrmU6UiSCxhex8RnE4ttnKioiV0NNMrX0F og6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531LeYyb2z0yKT49cIbyCRyV729V7zkBbEfHPp2KpOboQT7c0yCv ej4SPAu+9zquAXJ8DooZUEZkoO4zJT8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxCHVGE/6N5ocFq1Mzg+45ABUq7/7tYv5aYRPJxBV5uq7VMzvqpu0fPCUcIa/xyWThT847upQ== X-Received: by 2002:adf:a518:: with SMTP id i24mr3511550wrb.396.1618009973959; Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g124sm6565480wme.41.2021.04.09.16.12.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 16:12:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83ft0080hi.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::432; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x432.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -14 X-Spam_score: -1.5 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267753 Archived-At: On 09.04.2021 08:56, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I can imagine cases which pretty much*need* selection-like >> interface. xref-show-definitions-completing-read would be one >> example (it's relatively awkward to make the choice using >> completion, though certainly not impossible). > I don't think I understand how xref-show-definitions-completing-read > is different from, say, read-file-name. Can you explain? We've touched on this previously in the poll/discussion about the default: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-01/msg00029.html The values which xref-show-definitions-completing-read asks you to choose from are relatively complex, and hard to type out. Further, there's often only 2-3 values to choose from (in the Elisp's case, at least), so choosing the first one should be a frequent enough occasion. With a selection-based menu you look at all options and make a choice: often just press RET; maybe press TAB, or C-n, or a few times before that. With completing-read, you have to press TAB first, to see the choices, and then type some of your choice's contents, keeping in mind perhaps its distinguishing characteristics. That's simply more effort than the other approach. File name completion is different because you're not as likely to simply choose the first option, there can be a *lot* of files in the dir, and typing an average file name is much easier. Mind you, I generally prefer completion UIs that show the options before you start typing, but xref-show-definitions-completing-read makes a really strong case for it. Which is unfortunate, because otherwise it's my #1 choice for xref-show-definitions-function's default value, and changing Emacs's completion UI is not in the cards in any near future. So I would only be happy if you disagree with this assessment.