From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Paul Rankin Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Adding advisory notification for non-ELPA package.el downloads Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 01:58:29 +1000 Message-ID: <1500566309.1458705.1047217192.76275BAD@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1500553768.497130.1046984072.1622AF4D@webmail.messagingengine.com> <837ez3b4yd.fsf@gnu.org> <1500559308.516260.1047108888.2750C01A@webmail.messagingengine.com> <834lu7b35o.fsf@gnu.org> <1500561400.523072.1047139192.217F8F40@webmail.messagingengine.com> <831spbb0y1.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1500566400 19295 195.159.176.226 (20 Jul 2017 16:00:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 16:00:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 20 17:59:56 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dYDri-0004V4-1a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:59:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38779 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYDrn-0007zw-OT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:59:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40424) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYDqX-0006wB-Kk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYDqU-0005kT-PM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:35 -0400 Original-Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:50461) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dYDqQ-0005is-M0; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:31 -0400 Original-Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926242093F; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from web5 ([10.202.2.215]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=paulwrankin.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Oh93fEjkHfkBLLr1Q /GjpWoPOJjsuTHmQkYoUEj4V4k=; b=sQkVcKmzGch9O0BsanLP5YfsSimgvQAfh b9UiD29ZaO0puVYsgwzozpsvHexv556sJYfR7hHnjcv0jLNVBilY+ic9iVM7CDFd IhpqA51MTgu72Iv391xTgyQiHZW3cmDS1lI1fP3k/kl4pcNi/Ma8aXHCSqiAa026 19CrNKbpImnAZh3gLjnebv7/zp3n6ZgzrPRnGv7lKgobqX+RyQyxxU4ExYOBjKS4 TT5k+kJ2HcsSFWf7ozJUrihhGFZUon2U8To76YmjernOP9YkygSjNn1uMEjqxCa9 b55yrO6EyeZsAP3DzbQaBaCqzkii6fPogiibyj0qBoORpREUGw81w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Oh93fE jkHfkBLLr1Q/GjpWoPOJjsuTHmQkYoUEj4V4k=; b=Tyk13joNF5m4DujB/M6z+m 0i4k35F1MPcc7nfTalMNOpN8HxGNLdwn7QG2e6VDfKx1VHPVCL4ObXRx1ma/qKMG hXuLF+Ba5EZt8zyn311q0HVnDF7vm3LSmp8V0Qj+1idxlJNYODReK+xlrBm3BTnR kDQaoPwoc4jp0GBYcBT9x+34y4a8qWDOkYmfygsFQ+X2baUVQrebz7lg0/mckyIO 7+v99QExeu742FqJ45WomiAx3duE9pJ7+n4BU2rLSeMVXrjqzWQEN48Qn4gVKwWU CKAdGKd+wKTnJpYUD80E1wL/Cu6ngUpmYv/1umCgdAOZIuX6w0zbrPKJpK4Zwsxg == X-ME-Sender: Original-Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 99) id 6F5F29E224; Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface - ajax-095ee039 In-Reply-To: <831spbb0y1.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 66.111.4.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216901 Archived-At: On Fri, 21 Jul 2017, at 01:08 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Paul Rankin > > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 00:36:40 +1000 > > > > Copyright is not merely functional, and you're reducing it to even > > lesser functional purposes by arguing that given assigning copyright to > > the FSF retains the subset of functional purposes of copyright that are > > important to you, then they are effectively the same and should be > > treated the same for everyone. Copyright is not its function, rather its > > functions arise as the manifestations of the importance we see in > > authorship as ownership. That's a symbolic importance, and while that > > may not mean much to you, it's where all the functional purposes above > > come from. Owning a thing, and having rights to that thing as if you > > owned it, are not the same thing. > > AFAIK, the original author still owns the code he/she wrote, even > after the assignment, and the authorship information is not lost by > assigning the copyright. If that is true, then your concerns are > based on misunderstandings. I'm sorry to disagree with you, but no, if you assign copyright to someone else, you no longer own the work. Hence why FSF licences the work back to you. It may be the case that the FSF is entering into joint ownership agreements with authors, but going off the passage you quoted before, I don't think that's the case. Such agreements would also make the FSF's legal standing very difficult if they ever needed to defend against infringement. The authorship information (or "moral rights") is not really what I'm talking about, but specifically copyright ownership. > I would like to stress that it's IMO okay not to agree to assign > copyright, for whatever reasons. We just need to make sure that > people don't make these decisions based on misconceptions about what > the assignment means, legally and practically, for the original author > of the code. Once the decision is an informed one, it's eventually > the call of each one of us whether to assign or not. I agree. But let's make sure it really is informed and people know that assigning copyright means assigning ownership. We can argue about what it really means to "own" something, but I doubt anyone wants to hear that. I didn't really want to get into a debate about *why* I did not want to assign copyright, rather just that there are people out there who don't, for good reasons, and so decisions about Emacs development maybe should not be made based on the perspective that everyone would assign copyright if they only were adequately informed.