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* Re: Apologia for bzr
@ 2014-01-07  9:32 Alexander Meesters
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 123+ messages in thread
From: Alexander Meesters @ 2014-01-07  9:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

Dear Dr. Stallman,

To answer your question:"Do beginners typically run Emacs under a
graphical window system?", it seems so. I myself am a recent Emacs
adaptee(its been 3 days now), since i finaly decided to learn to program
in C(comming from a php and python background).

From what i picked up on the several IRC chatrooms i visit, the
generally use is under a graphical window system, although this would be
hardly representable for the masses, i didnt even know Emacs can work
without a GUI, most "Getting started with Emacs" tutorial that are
scattered throughout the web only cover the Emacs GUI.

Sincerely,

Alexander "Cyberwaste" Meesters.
PS) thank you for all the beautifull things you have given us.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 123+ messages in thread
* bzr is dying; Emacs needs to move
@ 2014-01-02  9:53 Eric S. Raymond
  2014-01-02 15:04 ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 123+ messages in thread
From: Eric S. Raymond @ 2014-01-02  9:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

I am posting this because I think it is my duty as a topic expert in
version-control systems and the surrounding tools to do so, not because
I have any desire to be in the argument that is certain to ensue.

The bzr version control system is dying; by most measures it is
already moribund.  The dev list has flatlined, most of Canonical's
in-house projects have abandoned bzr for git, and one of its senior
developers has written a remarkably candid assessment of why bzr
failed:

http://www.stationary-traveller.eu/pages/bzr-a-retrospective.html

I urge all Emacs developers to read this, then sleep on it, then read
it again - not least because I think Emacs development has fallen into
some of the same traps the author decribes.  But *that* is a discussion for
another day; the conversation we need to have now is about escaping
the gravitational pull of bzr's failure.

In theory, that failure need not affect us at all providing the bzr
codebase is sufficently mature to continue in use as a production
tool.  I judge that, in fact, it *is* sufficiently mature.

In practice, I judge that sticking with bzr would have social and
signaling effects damaging to Emacs's prospects. Sticking to a 
moribund version-control system will compound and exacerbate the 
project's difficulty in attracting new talent.

The uncomfortable truth is that many younger hackers already think
Emacs is a dinosaur - difficult, bulky, armor-plated, and generally
stuck in the last century. If we're going to fight off that image, we
cannot afford to make or adhere to choices that further cast the
project as crusty, insular, and backward-looking.

As of right about now, continuing with bzr is such a choice.  We'll
lose potential recruits, not merely because bzr has a learning cost
but because crusty, insular, etc.  The opportunity cost of not getting
out will only rise with time.

git won the mindshare war.  I regret this - I would have preferred
Mercurial, but it too is not looking real healthy these days.  I have
made my peace with git's victory and switched.  I urge the Emacs
project to do likewise.

I can be technical lead on the migration - as the author of
reposurgeon I have the skills and experience for that (I recently
moved GNU troff from CVS to git). But the project leadership needs
to make the go decision first.
-- 
		<a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>

No one who's seen it in action can say the phrase "government help" without
either laughing or crying.



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 123+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-10-29  7:11 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 123+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-01-07  9:32 Apologia for bzr Alexander Meesters
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2014-01-02  9:53 bzr is dying; Emacs needs to move Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-02 15:04 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-02 15:41   ` PROPOSAL: Move to git, now that bzr is no longer a req Karl Fogel
2014-01-02 17:10     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 17:28       ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-02 17:56         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 18:34           ` Apologia for bzr Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-02 20:44             ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 20:51               ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-02 21:03                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 21:15                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2014-01-03  7:47                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 11:11                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2014-01-03 11:46                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 11:55                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2014-01-02 21:31                   ` Óscar Fuentes
2014-01-02 21:14               ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-03  8:57                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03  9:21                   ` Yuri Khan
2014-01-03 10:08                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 20:34                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-03 21:07                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04  5:01                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-05 10:10                         ` Florian Weimer
2020-10-29  7:11                     ` Drew Adams
2014-01-03 14:37                 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-03 15:21                   ` Toby Cubitt
2014-01-04  7:59                     ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-04  8:28                       ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-04 12:09                         ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-04 15:44                           ` Tom
2014-01-04 19:00                             ` David Kastrup
2014-01-04 19:38                               ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-04 20:48                               ` Tom
2014-01-05 10:03                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-05 11:52                             ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-05 18:14                               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2014-01-05 14:27                             ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-05 15:27                               ` David Kastrup
2014-01-05 15:56                                 ` Werner LEMBERG
2014-01-05 20:20                         ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-05 20:35                           ` Gabriel Beauchamp
2014-01-06  4:07                             ` Yuri Khan
2014-01-05 20:41                           ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-05 21:31                             ` Tom
2014-01-06 14:00                             ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-06 14:29                               ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-06 15:14                                 ` John Yates
2014-01-06 20:27                                 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-06 20:32                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2014-01-06 23:43                                     ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-06 23:50                                       ` David Kastrup
2014-01-07  0:02                                         ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-07  8:27                                           ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2014-01-07  6:05                                     ` Christophe Poncy
2014-01-07 16:53                                     ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-07  0:12                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-07  6:21                                     ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2014-01-07 10:30                                       ` Jose E. Marchesi
2014-01-09 14:10                                         ` Per Starbäck
2014-01-07  6:22                                     ` Christophe Poncy
2014-01-07  6:41                                       ` joakim
2014-01-06 20:27                                 ` Richard Stallman
2014-01-07  6:03                                 ` Christophe Poncy
2014-01-06 14:55                               ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-07  5:58                               ` Christophe Poncy
2014-01-05 20:56                           ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-05 21:58                             ` Florian Weimer
2014-01-05 22:13                               ` chad
2014-01-05 22:25                                 ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-05 23:01                                   ` chad
2014-01-06  2:32                                     ` Lennart Borgman
2014-01-05 22:54                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 14:09                                   ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2014-01-06 14:54                                     ` David Kastrup
2014-01-06 14:56                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-07  6:00                                     ` Christophe Poncy
2014-01-05 23:41                             ` James Cloos
2014-01-06  0:27                               ` Karl Fogel
2014-01-06  0:35                               ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-06  0:45                               ` David Kastrup
2014-01-06  1:52                                 ` Eric Brown
2014-01-06  2:08                                   ` David Kastrup
2014-01-06  4:27                                 ` Yuri Khan
2014-01-06  7:18                                   ` Michael Albinus
2014-01-06  7:32                                   ` chad
2014-01-06 15:40                                 ` James Cloos
2014-01-06 18:47                             ` Eric Brown
2014-01-09 20:30                             ` Rogerio Senna
2014-01-09 22:05                               ` Drew Adams
2014-01-03  9:44               ` Tassilo Horn
2014-01-03 10:26                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 10:56                   ` Nathan Trapuzzano
2014-01-03 11:45                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 11:49                       ` Nathan Trapuzzano
2014-01-03 13:54                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:37                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 15:06                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2014-01-03 15:34                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 13:49                   ` Leo Liu
2014-01-03 14:08                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 15:12                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2014-01-03 17:48                         ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-03 19:39                         ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 19:49                       ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 20:27                         ` David Kastrup
2014-01-03 20:39                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2014-01-03 20:54                           ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-04  4:06                           ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04  2:00                         ` Josh
2014-01-03 17:45                     ` Eric S. Raymond
2014-01-03 17:56                       ` Karl Fogel
2014-01-03 18:04                         ` Ted Zlatanov
2014-01-03 18:21                           ` Karl Fogel
2014-01-03 19:52                             ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 20:17                               ` Karl Fogel
2014-01-04 10:01                               ` David Engster
2014-01-04 19:53                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-03 19:19                           ` chad
2014-01-03 18:05                         ` David Engster
2014-01-04 13:08                         ` Bastien
2014-01-03 16:57                   ` Tassilo Horn
2014-01-03 20:02                     ` Ulrich Mueller
2014-01-03 20:13                       ` Tassilo Horn
2014-01-03 20:32                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 20:14                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 20:50                       ` Óscar Fuentes
2014-01-03 21:10                       ` Tassilo Horn

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