From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.comp.gnu.gettext.bugs,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs i18n Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:06 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <128e2068-72d6-7822-6866-49c2a810c3db@cs.ucla.edu> References: <25076895.mA2g9mTHSI@omega> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="105054"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.3 Cc: emacs-devel-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org, bug-gettext-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org To: Bruno Haible , rms-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Original-X-From: bug-gettext-bounces+gcggb-bug-gettext=m.gmane.org-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Wed Mar 20 17:40:42 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcggb-bug-gettext@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1h6eGc-000RCq-KW for gcggb-bug-gettext@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 17:40:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50359 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1h6eGb-0003Jv-Cf for gcggb-bug-gettext@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:40:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36226) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1h6eCg-000868-AB for bug-gettext-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:36:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1h6eCe-0005tF-Gh for bug-gettext-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:36:34 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:48690) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1h6eCX-00057M-UZ; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:36:27 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46FD1608B8; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id P4L34Wveyxoe; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9F3160885; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id nHcaMhiLPeAm; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C9F0160855; Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=eggert-764C0pRuGfqVc3sceRu5cw@public.gmane.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBEyAcmQBEADAAyH2xoTu7ppG5D3a8FMZEon74dCvc4+q1XA2J2tBy2pwaTqfhpxxdGA9 Jj50UJ3PD4bSUEgN8tLZ0san47l5XTAFLi2456ciSl5m8sKaHlGdt9XmAAtmXqeZVIYX/UFS 96fDzf4xhEmm/y7LbYEPQdUdxu47xA5KhTYp5bltF3WYDz1Ygd7gx07Auwp7iw7eNvnoDTAl KAl8KYDZzbDNCQGEbpY3efZIvPdeI+FWQN4W+kghy+P6au6PrIIhYraeua7XDdb2LS1en3Ss mE3QjqfRqI/A2ue8JMwsvXe/WK38Ezs6x74iTaqI3AFH6ilAhDqpMnd/msSESNFt76DiO1ZK QMr9amVPknjfPmJISqdhgB1DlEdw34sROf6V8mZw0xfqT6PKE46LcFefzs0kbg4GORf8vjG2 Sf1tk5eU8MBiyN/bZ03bKNjNYMpODDQQwuP84kYLkX2wBxxMAhBxwbDVZudzxDZJ1C2VXujC OJVxq2kljBM9ETYuUGqd75AW2LXrLw6+MuIsHFAYAgRr7+KcwDgBAfwhPBYX34nSSiHlmLC+ KaHLeCLF5ZI2vKm3HEeCTtlOg7xZEONgwzL+fdKo+D6SoC8RRxJKs8a3sVfI4t6CnrQzvJbB n6gxdgCu5i29J1QCYrCYvql2UyFPAK+do99/1jOXT4m2836j1wARAQABzSBQYXVsIEVnZ2Vy dCA8ZWdnZXJ0QGNzLnVjbGEuZWR1PsLBfgQTAQIAKAUCTIByZAIbAwUJEswDAAYLCQgHAwIG FQgCCQoLBBYCAwECH In-Reply-To: <25076895.mA2g9mTHSI@omega> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 131.179.128.68 X-BeenThere: bug-gettext-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Bug reports for GNU gettext List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gettext-bounces+gcggb-bug-gettext=m.gmane.org-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org Original-Sender: "bug-gettext" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.gnu.gettext.bugs:1961 gmane.emacs.devel:234412 Archived-At: On 3/20/19 4:59 AM, Bruno Haible wrote: > In the gettext approach (where 1) are POT files and 2) are PO files) we > added plural form handling, which is just a small morphological variation, > and it required a significant amount of documentation and education for > translators. I would say, it is on the limit what we can make translators > grok. Thanks for making the point better than I was able to. There's another reason pluralization is a good place to stop. GNU gettext attacks the problem of how to translate formats containing printf conversion specifications like %d, in phrases like "%d items". That is, gettext deals with the grammatical problem of number, because printf formats numbers. However, there are no printf conversion specifications for other grammatical aspects such as case, gender, tense, voice, or mood, which means there is no significant need for gettext to deal with these other aspects. In hindsight it might have been better if gettext had not attacked the problem of plurals. As you wrtite, even plurals are nearly a bridge too far. But it's done now, so we might as well use it.