From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Google modules integration Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 10:47:56 -0700 Message-ID: <1284140876.2505.23.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> References: <878w3a1x9s.fsf@keller.adm.naquadah.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1284141062 15188 80.91.229.12 (10 Sep 2010 17:51:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:51:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Julien Danjou , dave@lab6.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, carsten.dominik@gmail.com To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 10 19:51:01 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou7kY-0000zl-9k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 19:50:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40561 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ou7kX-00052V-Gj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:50:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=45743 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ou7hg-0002Vp-PY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:48:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou7hf-0000iY-Fz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:48:00 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp181.iad.emailsrvr.com ([207.97.245.181]:58341) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ou7hf-0000iR-Ch for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:47:59 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp38.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A1519348219; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:47:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: OK Original-Received: by smtp38.relay.iad1a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: lord-AT-emf.net) with ESMTPSA id D3DA73483AF; Fri, 10 Sep 2010 13:47:57 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Evolution 2.28.3 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129923 Archived-At: RMS,=20 About whether or not Google maps is "SaaS" or simply a "service", you wrote: > We reject packages whose functionality is support for proprietary > programs. However, a service is not a program. The issues about a > service are totally different. For instance, we disapprove of SaaS > (see gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html). But > these services [Google maps and weather] are not SaaS. As far > as I know, they just provide information. You have defined SaaS this way: "Software as a Service (SaaS) means that someone sets up a network server that does certain computing tasks=E2=80=94running spreadsheets, wo= rd processing, translating text into another language, etc.=E2=80=94then inv= ites users to do their computing on that server. Users send their data to the server, which does their computing on the data thus provided, then sends the results back or acts on them directly." Google Maps (for example) fits your definition of SaaS, even the limited set of features supported by that emacs package. Google's primary proprietary "hook" there is, of course, its proprietary databases. Given that raw data, rather than simply and affordably sell copies and let people write their own programs to use the maps, Google hords the data in order to gain a=20 monopoly over what programs may be used to process it. For example (this example taken from the google-maps.el homepage), suppose that you want to see a map of Paris -- but you want a=20 customized map. You would like it centered upon=20 a particular cemetary of historic significance, you would like to=20 highlight some famous landscapes, and you would like to=20 compute and highlight a route of travel that hits a customized=20 list of landscapes. Of course, to specify all of that, you will write out=20 locations like "Tour Eiffel, Paris" rather than giving=20 latitude and longitude. Two elements are involved in producing your map: a lot of=20 data - a huge database - plus some programs that take your input, do some computations on them, and give you back results. That, per your definition is SaaS and Google Maps is an example. It is alarming that you say Google Maps is not SaaS in part=20 because Google Maps is a very fine example of a set of programs that Google alone controls and which are fantastically great for nasty and unwelcome surveillance of users. In other=20 words, Google Maps exemplifies *quite well* the sort of evil=20 that can result from proprietary software whether that software is horded via copyright or via the SaaS mechanism. >>From a broader perspective, I'm not sure that your definition of SaaS actually excludes many network services at all. I=20 think you've framed the issues awkwardly there. The report I owe you (coming up soonish) will suggest a better framing of the issues. -t