From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thomas Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Infrastructural complexity. Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 13:18:39 -0700 Message-ID: <1248034719.6319.15.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> References: <20090712180623.GA1009@muc.de> <1247798678.6302.156.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <87ocrjtafd.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <1247871746.6287.157.camel@dell-desktop.example.com> <87tz19efhy.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <87vdlo5xzi.fsf@mail.jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1248034747 2523 80.91.229.12 (19 Jul 2009 20:19:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:19:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com, Lennart Borgman , joakim@verona.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rudalics@gmx.at, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, drew.adams@oracle.com To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 19 22:18:59 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MScqT-0006sx-Fi for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 22:18:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54933 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MScqS-0003qU-RD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MScqN-0003px-HF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:47 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MScqJ-0003nk-21 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=49661 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MScqI-0003nh-SZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:42 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp151.iad.emailsrvr.com ([207.97.245.151]:42431) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MScqI-0002LY-JL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:42 -0400 Original-Received: from relay5.relay.iad.emailsrvr.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay5.relay.iad.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A63845C010F; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: by relay5.relay.iad.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: lord-AT-emf.net) with ESMTPSA id 020C55C0103; Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:18:39 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <87vdlo5xzi.fsf@mail.jurta.org> X-Mailer: Evolution 2.22.3.1 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:112771 Archived-At: On Sun, 2009-07-19 at 21:23 +0300, Juri Linkov wrote: > > Why should they need menu bars and tool bars etc? I think they would > > be useful without it. > > Have you seen Eclipse screenshots? Eclipse and other IDE framelets have > tool bars and tab bars. This is more idle brainstorming than anything else: Some quick thoughts about how I think about this design space: 1) A useful concept is that toolbars, tab bars, and menu bars are all "virtual input devices". Their main function is to give users a way to generate a distinct class of input event types. This concept is reflected in the existing support, of course, but it's useful to state it explicitly. What kinds of "virtual input device" we have is necessarily kind of ad hoc but that's ok because having just a few, general purpose ad hoc virtual input devices goes a long way in terms of utility. 2) We don't have to slavishly follow Eclipse or another program to determine our list of virtual input devices. When we pick virtual input device types and their behavior, whenever possible, virtual input devices that make some sense on plain-text smart terminals are extra nifty to have. Given Emacs' huge command set, I'd really like to see a virtual input device that resembled, say, the command menu system of old PC programs like Lotus whatsit or any of the spreadsheet programs. This also resembles the command menu interfaces of some HP calculators, as I recall. Basically, a narrow area for listing a thin menu of commands but with a "tree structure" so you can dig down to sub-commands or pop back up to parent menus. With a "home" or "clear" command for getting back to the root of the command tree. -t