From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 22:35:46 +0300 Message-ID: <112aecd7-8165-6cae-ef69-08d14d843841@yandex.ru> References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <83zha8tluq.fsf@gnu.org> <87v9kwi6ta.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83wo5ccgg4.fsf@gnu.org> <87lflshxtq.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <83mu68cbbb.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7wghxdz.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> <87eerkgey1.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="24061"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: rms@gnu.org, andreas.roehler@online.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, kfogel@red-bean.com, homeros.misasa@gmail.com, tkk@misasa.okayama-u.ac.jp, Eli Zaretskii To: Sergey Organov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 16 21:36:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ja2be-00069f-DO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 21:36:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59800 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja2bd-0001dm-Fu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 15:36:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33664) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja2bA-0001D8-Ft for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 16 May 2020 15:35:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::431]:39031) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ja2b9-0002eN-4z; Sat, 16 May 2020 15:35:52 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id l18so7256915wrn.6; Sat, 16 May 2020 12:35:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UtaQ00BaGsVKE0NtLuLILI1XD7tLSriKCcY9KFgFURA=; b=Eh0t0vhvi+0F8r94CNfrB5pcNfL+2eRIDXQkeMmcSUGKmXiiUKfpSx5/FK13CoMJbY YcrJK6jciIP2iIJZmd3IVNy9K6I1CTzGtORjRL59Za0rzNTyayuYy+eCTp/rSU6ZZ/Xm U8aMOzj4L2BQn2Gi1Hz8u4rMwwHWx4nrz2gQfvTzbZ1YBhcMcBpoixt6AAqiKRgyWGhf MVusTpjSW+YPfvS9O88VLAPb3ELBfYqfaLQ5p2xRKpxwjlU+3UiCEkKJmnC2X1N0Ye5a 9b6kGnTY2b/3tJ/v/kqe9a+JumXjzqAg1nu0iT38KN9MXgkwdT5nL/5DdvLg5nflnoCX CVTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UtaQ00BaGsVKE0NtLuLILI1XD7tLSriKCcY9KFgFURA=; b=MOO085XSuTdDNbYdzXO1H2wkc2pu0crKTEBsrLVk2M6tPVsJdQDXpulKx8Kln4oTgI KuCezLav2i6ZU7eaHpglRxeyLjkvn9KbMW+wPs5J0xmHojNZmjdhRkxoecNBrAfWomLO KyLzxWdX383hEgmEvDaqkexQCxGT1zGvWu/zg51cLBqFWwOFfAVHoZMDuGRxcDYDzDQb 0kXcYToliJSvOiNbAa8N8z5ggckZaaXLiA5/SpSIY9lqBG9QekIhOgg3R7gyW/cohDdn ylhP7qR6lExoM1ePM4S4gBa3E6sdROt8zfR5te9GlfwApm73M3H2ibjr6dfwYGxNm6m0 JAwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533cmpewzgOc36TiiwsHvaLld2o7mOzKltmnXBw2JGVtZy3Pm9yA PRwH6Jf9i4NAuChb9BNzDTo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9eEhpwnYM7r63vZ1YM3LlXepniH1/hyF5xS39poxd/hsxRi/fH6ToAFQ5FP2s5FHJsEoz+A== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6412:: with SMTP id z18mr10621498wru.290.1589657749009; Sat, 16 May 2020 12:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p10sm9873591wra.78.2020.05.16.12.35.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 16 May 2020 12:35:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87eerkgey1.fsf@osv.gnss.ru> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::431; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x431.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:250520 Archived-At: On 16.05.2020 16:57, Sergey Organov wrote: >> My anecdata shows otherwise: it's never been a problem personally. > > What exactly? Failure to notice Emacs suddenly asking you for something > in the minibuffer? I see it very often. Yes. I _have_ had problems reading the minibuffer's contents, however, on a few occasions. > Rarely newbies look at the bottom of the screen/frame when cursor is > suddenly gone, even after some training. The most frequent instinct I > see is clicking with the mouse at the position on the screen where they > want cursor to be. > > Here is an example: > > 1. Type C-x b (imitation of accident keystroke) > 2. Click with the mouse _here_ > 3. In the menu click "Edit | Go To | Goto Line" > > Result? For me it's: > > completing-read-default: Command attempted to use minibuffer while in minibuffer > > error message that, besides, is again being output into minibuffer > place, that for me even was immediately overwritten by a help string on > a lisp variable as I was doing it in the *scratch*. > > Will any newbie be able to tell why this menu item suddenly didn't work > as expected? I'd rather afraid they may think Emacs is buggy and > unreliable. Fair enough. But in the end, you're probably asking for something that doesn't exist in Emacs yet. Like, no graphical switches for buffers that's equal in power to the minibuffer-based one. I agree that the prompts could be positioned better, and the result could be better readability. After all, if one uses the minibuffer a lot, isn't it a shame that it resides somewhere down below, and uses the same font as the rest of Emacs? In that, I think VS Code, Atom, etc, have a better idea by positioning their input area somewhere near the top of the window, in an easy-to-see dropdown. Somewhere in the middle of the frame could also work. If you like, try out https://github.com/honmaple/emacs-maple-minibuffer/ with (setq maple-minibuffer:position-type 'frame-top-center) or 'frame-center. I'd like to see Emacs something like this by default someday. > This is unrelated to the context of the suggestion. > > Please recall that the problem being discussed is /accidental/ > invocation of a command by a keystroke that brings newbie to minibuffer > that she often doesn't even notice! If Emacs rather threw big shiny > dialog into his face (even if only displaying this same minibuffer in > it), it'd leave the newbie little chances to remain ignorant. > > In fact, many "expert" commands already do something like this, asking > to be explicitly enabled. This is not that helpful for complete newbies > though as the prompt still uses the minibuffer that newbies often forget > to pay attention to in the first place. I see where you're coming from, but I think the minibuffer is too large a part of Emacs UI to shield the newbies from it like that. Or at least, the above would be a better solution, by improving minibuffer's usability for both newbies and existing users.