From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: martin rudalics Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Confused by y-or-n-p Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 14:45:39 +0100 Message-ID: <0f48672e-0589-209a-10b2-eb93025189c4@gmx.at> References: <834kkcr1eo.fsf@gnu.org> <43b24209-fa65-0e26-7cbd-f99175a7ffd8@gmx.at> <87wnx7j5is.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5402"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org, Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 26 14:47:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kt9uM-0001FF-Qb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2020 14:46:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44252 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kt9uL-0005N0-R4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2020 08:46:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48988) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kt9tC-0004XW-OJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2020 08:45:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.17.22]:37513) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kt9tA-0001QK-ES; Sat, 26 Dec 2020 08:45:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1608990340; bh=fvNDbo/hEAVAXIEHNzLvfCG47OgFT1ysolcF4yj52yc=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=LKxD5mkzjRkcDdyZiKDh7QmmhgqIFT807CNDY378QgjsSPxFvRt3pj9aANnZHNeG7 r1re2F5UHtXobQObRnEMO9EV+ZpiXblR/rdrre2Fr6y+AAYgLyUL/gg2Bx+4RZDfNI /52yI0AwUnnJfLQ3W0j1SvWgiB8GBMlsrapZsSJI= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Original-Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([212.95.5.164]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MJmGP-1kdXun2jyT-00KATc; Sat, 26 Dec 2020 14:45:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:dA61o2NLjpI0awOzOIDdkd/moukkt8Dm18HkUmQ4Dgt44rUfnvG ILyb7n0GanF2BVsRE+qh9tp8Hsgo5zKu7VLA1vO3krgd52H6wcSlSnJy5AhggMRhUYAlXoT 0i1lrnLdjpNzwnsJM49qWcZb2C1XHYPPSCYCATsirLt0npjVw++0JrsyXL3SU5HY3U2UlrT b4qGL3vjAi4KP2eGLOSeA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:wGH8sx3OLtc=:GpPPhWHV2zxxGlFenC+OCn uRPijGB207Ho8v5OeqcZKMJ+NW7sAxwxTQFK8g7g3VHGH+5X/UEzR/QdXx5R8/1hlCDTojsI/ UFncQcIGwWKJX7J6OL1pb/NmyefFeXDJWMUS6wsde4QxyuLg9aGY1CqObo1wnaa/hy6CQQP7H aZlCGWxpSuJDLc8HwFkrkVJ48OstjAV2Q0AqRwcuweRKyaDXbAIYp0ADYsA7o2bwwU26opILx eJF3GCX/93irwUMsaPtrJwWVDP7vK35BXueyd6MS6sgLEkqp1GqtzzsoKgcTJsPkGSog5hH89 8cFuHYquDG4urqJCFP7GcSPz7trDZ6Ccl4gMEuRSjsE6MDYnpgFmJtXlgu3YJvLpKNt4VF4GX u0hv9TC84FJGamMkao/i6K6IbUpsSCh97b/eH1kDRCfCVg6bzkeYiwvr9Za84+KdlLOgo8diX Kwyu6B7z1xIKBHznCr2TyLf6QgcCvWEs+w5cyQZjmm3FcyWctmt2FV4EG0jryTtfSXhlbT2D6 g+/ypiDLk9WAyExBYjWgUQmTXEbn+C19JOYeswsoKcDDjc8aCX4Mi/O7+Y3ttETh3dLrxLHlf 6lxSH31dcWZmoesaNy1ZQQT2PJdZ8Pa9jqVvdrO8V0/8ZHU4h91YW5I+ehxOulcL/WVvrzXJj wmLZJwPcxC7OsqQI6fj0vJozBshxyoG6kYMn41klltvW5wEEGSOMwLRc8pptg8a2m4Tw4iPEY zfcjZXV1IFfAzaagyzcaxozw3MBD2vK9PJ7MHI+QnZm94RWF0afFiLuQEyj/YGzrcixKnfDr Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.22; envelope-from=rudalics@gmx.at; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261856 Archived-At: > What was the reason for implementing this change in the > single-character-answer commands? Who actually wanted the change in > behavior? And for what use cases? The old behavior was based on the assumption that the echo area and the minibuffer contents are always shown in one and the same window (at least wrt to one and the same frame). This design has the basic flaw that it will preclude forever showing echo area and minibuffer window in separate areas of the screen: Otherwise, users would be asked `yes-or-no-p' questions in one screen area, 'y-or-n-p' ones in another. Now why would separating echo area and minibuffer window be desirable? A main reason is that over the past years we started to show things in the echo area that we didn't show there before, with the consequence that prompts got more and more hidden by messages or some messages never even made it to the echo area in the first place. Ultimately, the time sharing approach crashed under the load of messages. So Eli started to visually separate the area where we prompt for user input from the area where we show messages. While this seems to work for most of our more experienced users, less experienced ones (including me) are now confused whenever they see a message that is completely unrelated to the current interaction appear after the prompt. We simply have never in our life seen a program put notifications and user input into one and the same screen line. Finally, Juri made a first stab in unifying the 'yes-or-no-p' and 'y-or-n-p' behaviors by handling both via reading from the minibuffer. This means that one can implement visual separation for these in the same way, hopefully also in separate screen areas. martin, with best wishes to father Edward