From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:55:39 +0300 Message-ID: <0ce06d95-0593-bc55-983f-6b6601503a1a@yandex.ru> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> <45098d13-2770-4a19-6f82-b22276eb51c8@yandex.ru> <877dy91mb0.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="14005"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?S=c3=a9bastien_Gendre?= , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , Emacs developers To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 21 15:56:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtNx-0003Yl-R3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 15:56:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58772 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtNw-0004KN-SE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:56:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54966) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtNL-0003rs-Kg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:55:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtNK-0000Yg-Pg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:55:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]:43739) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQtNK-0000W2-DS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 09:55:46 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id i10so16546515wrv.10 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:55:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UgJ1j9hZDbLciB0sjqHzTEDcXncojqm5toYdil19QU4=; b=CylzjeL6YfVbPd4bsSDGgZBfOMggpqqEWLXczsT5IgQlWPFbPqveAocpS/cyQBZyGA UiCkn2FzYS3eX+GJb26Nxs21Qt7nCpNhTyoVfLnMK5YkLQvSO9rzRQMAUcSeBuwyiFBw fv3GzvzG66398hv8ocm7DwTK8al4SBHrnOYfd0woRFcTF20HfI7XA6qFQpT8xpwU/rMs qhGd7gdcxgKgfhv3w5VJ88uRGizR2iAlWbDPxl6fd9AJExQSOOHtyVS3UvlHeFcouLOI LBKtLhtgAxkSTS5S2VIE7lnjqCRjK3OMSs6tGKGsk4bQ1P1/NAZ/k0ievAM8hdqcB2Eq LGOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UgJ1j9hZDbLciB0sjqHzTEDcXncojqm5toYdil19QU4=; b=F3fDLuPHC+Qt2LIqoNxNcCrlrqQ0EGxFZBgQcTFEmalw9G2provhHCo0KwyzHyXWtb kcvZ0CG6uBpHvSILi8gkDhDedk6sr/J0P5rv7VJpXxFbMkv03JOIEjd0cWdRDd0sfPEs K+OOHq9UoR9C0dpF/0O+VRAnwnIl5zxSjvzvNUBm4bPgFAwzUi1YxMQc90G+k2eJ3o+w V/64pAstp5ymMB76CXzfHXV2HPjtbhwH/M5cdfvOcKkhBOY24iN818YT78BYQjSF1BoH KEXxaWodrD8cmKpsAnuuwu0vqS/DmemaHzFbj0VQCeiMLSGT/PKUXWtXV85j3hfScOXi MatA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZ68fn86ZBNVIHeDsROB+mMPOR4bsbCM6k/gEacbqcfYaW5L4Zp C1L4wP1yAr99RpZeS/5rFfuwgkMn4Ss= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLNXmeGaX+2R5N1EavLCjWueRAMAy7qlCbq54RTVWF/NcaYog+JZbBhNnxjkostEFnt4EWUKA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:b35c:: with SMTP id k28mr24278287wrd.61.1587477343121; Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e5sm3858528wru.92.2020.04.21.06.55.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Apr 2020 06:55:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <877dy91mb0.fsf@yahoo.com> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42f; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::42f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247465 Archived-At: On 21.04.2020 07:42, Po Lu wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> Please keep in mind that if we hope to make Emacs reach, say, 30% >> share among programmers, the extra 25% would be new users. > > We should prioritize existing users over hypothetical users that don't > even exist yet. And then, another 20 years pass, the current users get too old/change careers/retire/etc, and Emacs's userbase shrinks even more. I don't want Emacs to die out, and it will if we don't do the work of attracting new users. >> So for all questions about changing defaults, we should ask ourselves, >> do we prioritize the existing 5% (or 3%, as SO poll says) userbase >> that will naturally continue shrinking over the years, or whether we >> prefer to make life easier and more productive for the users that >> should come later. > > One exists. The other doesn't. > Which one would you choose? Also note that we don't really have the ability to poll even our existing users, to find out whether they would like a given change. Even disregarding those who would change their mind later. >> And it's not like existing, long-time users can't grow to like the new >> defaults (even after a certain amount of grumbling). I think the Xref >> example shows that. > > Xref was bad enough. Give it time. > Changing C-a to "select all" would be worse. I didn't talk about that, but... I think it's possible to support two sets of keybindings. That's definitely extra work, though. Including simply designing a set of bindings that is both compatible with CUA and yet retains the current design principles to some extent (so far I have no good ideas on that front).