An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

It occurred to me today that we have tons of examples of how Lisp functions
can be written in a flavor C. This "compilation" is typically done by hand by
a few experts.

However, what if we had a compiler from Emacs Lisp -> Lisp-flavored C, which
could turn .el files into .c files suitable for compiling into .so's that can
be loaded into Emacs?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Óscar Fuentes]

"John Wiegley" <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

> It occurred to me today that we have tons of examples of how Lisp functions
> can be written in a flavor C. This "compilation" is typically done by hand by
> a few experts.
>
> However, what if we had a compiler from Emacs Lisp -> Lisp-flavored C, which
> could turn .el files into .c files suitable for compiling into .so's that can
> be loaded into Emacs?

Mandatory mention:

JIT Compilation for Emacs

http://tromey.com/blog/?p=982

IMHO and based on my experience with other projects, this is the way
Elisp should go for improving performance. It is dubious that the
approach you mention would be any better on terms of raw performance,
apart from decreasing load time. Anyways, if speed is really important,
nothing beats a pure C implementation.

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth]

John Wiegley wrote:> However, what if we had a compiler from Emacs Lisp 
-> Lisp-flavored C, which
> could turn .el files into .c files suitable for compiling into .so's that can
> be loaded into Emacs?

Assuming that such a compiler was made, what would be some examples of 
.el files that should be converted into C?

Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "John" == John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

John> However, what if we had a compiler from Emacs Lisp -> Lisp-flavored C, which
John> could turn .el files into .c files suitable for compiling into .so's that can
John> be loaded into Emacs?

https://github.com/tromey/el-compilador

This still has a bunch of bugs but it has successfully turned some elisp
into C.  I have an emacs branch where I replaced some of the code in
subr.c with elisp.

Tom

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "S(P" == Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth <siraben@disroot.org> writes:

S(P> Assuming that such a compiler was made, what would be some examples of
S(P> .el files that should be converted into C?

I was thinking that Gnus and Org-mode would be great candidates, as a way of
improving their perceived latency.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:

TT> https://github.com/tromey/el-compilador

TT> This still has a bunch of bugs but it has successfully turned some elisp
TT> into C. I have an emacs branch where I replaced some of the code in subr.c
TT> with elisp.

Very nice! This is just what I was thinking of, so what do you need to help
this project mature?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: "John Wiegley" <johnw@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:31:27 -0700
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> >>>>> "S(P" == Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth <siraben@disroot.org> writes:
> 
> S(P> Assuming that such a compiler was made, what would be some examples of
> S(P> .el files that should be converted into C?
> 
> I was thinking that Gnus and Org-mode would be great candidates, as a way of
> improving their perceived latency.

Do we have profiles of the uses where there's a perceived latency?
Are we sure the latency is caused by Lisp code?

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Do we have profiles of the uses where there's a perceived latency? Are we
> sure the latency is caused by Lisp code?

No, this is just assumption on my part, I don't have any knowledge, or even a
reasonably good opinion, that it would make things any better.  I suspect that
just getting Gnus to use lexical-scope everywhere would be a bigger win for
less effort.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Do we have profiles of the uses where there's a perceived latency?
> Are we sure the latency is caused by Lisp code?

Would there be a way to check to benchmark operations in various Emacs
Lisp files over commits to see if we're getting faster or slower?

-- 
Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: "Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth" <siraben@disroot.org>
> Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 21:59:29 +0700
> 
> Would there be a way to check to benchmark operations in various Emacs
> Lisp files over commits to see if we're getting faster or slower?

Why not?

John even asked for creation of such a suite of performance tests, but
AFAIK no one has picked the gauntlet till now.

An Emacs benchmarking suite (was: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading)

[Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> John even asked for creation of such a suite of performance tests, but
> AFAIK no one has picked the gauntlet till now.

Would it suffice to use Emacs Lisp to run these performance tests
(i.e. using benchmark.el)?  Even so, how would one account for
external factors in the operating system?  Perhaps when the test is
performed, the deltas between commits are given as percentages instead
of CPU time.  Once we have that, it would be great to have tests run
multiple times and/or on various devices to refine the data further.

An area that would be interesting to look at is memory usage of
functions over commits, but I don't know of a way of measuring memory
usage in Emacs (especially over an extended period, to analyze things
such as maximum memory usage).

-- 
Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth

Re: An Emacs benchmarking suite (was: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: johnw@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: "Siraphob (Ben) Phipathananunth" <siraben@disroot.org>
> Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 22:22:47 +0700
> 
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > John even asked for creation of such a suite of performance tests, but
> > AFAIK no one has picked the gauntlet till now.
> 
> Would it suffice to use Emacs Lisp to run these performance tests
> (i.e. using benchmark.el)?

I don't see why not.

> Even so, how would one account for external factors in the operating
> system?  Perhaps when the test is performed, the deltas between
> commits are given as percentages instead of CPU time.  Once we have
> that, it would be great to have tests run multiple times and/or on
> various devices to refine the data further.

Performance should indeed compare several versions n the same system.

> An area that would be interesting to look at is memory usage of
> functions over commits, but I don't know of a way of measuring memory
> usage in Emacs (especially over an extended period, to analyze things
> such as maximum memory usage).

Memory analysis is tricky on modern systems. but it isn't impossible.
One could start using the values reported by process-attributes.

Re: An Emacs benchmarking suite

[Phillip Lord]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> Even so, how would one account for external factors in the operating
>> system?  Perhaps when the test is performed, the deltas between
>> commits are given as percentages instead of CPU time.  Once we have
>> that, it would be great to have tests run multiple times and/or on
>> various devices to refine the data further.
>
> Performance should indeed compare several versions n the same system.


I wonder if there is a way to work out a base line value. Benchmarks
could then look for multiples of this.

So, something like time to create a big list (for CPU), and time to read
a defined file (for IO). Then you could say "this file should parse in
1x IO base-line + 10x CPU base-line.

That way the bench marks could become part of the test set. If things
got significantly slower, tests would fail.

Phil

Re: An Emacs benchmarking suite

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord)
> Cc: "Siraphob \(Ben\) Phipathananunth" <siraben@disroot.org>,  johnw@gnu.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 12:37:09 +0100
> 
> > Performance should indeed compare several versions n the same system.
> 
> 
> I wonder if there is a way to work out a base line value. Benchmarks
> could then look for multiples of this.

But such a base line would also have to be specific to a platform and
a given set of build options.

> So, something like time to create a big list (for CPU), and time to read
> a defined file (for IO). Then you could say "this file should parse in
> 1x IO base-line + 10x CPU base-line.

You assume a linear scalability, but that is not necessarily so.  The
ratio between performance indices of different codes could vary
depending on the build option and the underlying OS.

Btw, IME I/O is mostly negligible in Emacs applications, and generally
is not interesting for the issue at hand.  Only CPU is important, and
maybe also memory usage.

Re: An Emacs benchmarking suite

[Stefan Monnier]

>> So, something like time to create a big list (for CPU), and time to read
>> a defined file (for IO). Then you could say "this file should parse in
>> 1x IO base-line + 10x CPU base-line.
>
> You assume a linear scalability, but that is not necessarily so.
> The ratio between performance indices of different codes could vary
> depending on the build option and the underlying OS.

Another issue is that performance measuring is notoriously difficult
(even on an otherwise idle machine, let alone on some server that has
other tasks running at the same time).  So you might be able to catch
the "10x slower" case easily with a fairly high confidence that the
problem is indeed that the code got slower, but if you want to catch the
"20% slowdown" with any kind of confidence (without being drowned in
false positives), you'll need either a very tight control on the test
runs, or a good statistical analysis.


        Stefan

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "John" == John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:
TT> https://github.com/tromey/el-compilador

TT> This still has a bunch of bugs but it has successfully turned some elisp
TT> into C. I have an emacs branch where I replaced some of the code in subr.c
TT> with elisp.

John> Very nice! This is just what I was thinking of, so what do you need to help
John> this project mature?

I think the main thing is feeling like it matters.  One of my long-term
goals was to have more of Emacs be written in Emacs Lisp, and this was a
supporting technology for that.  (Other pieces were the FFI and gcc-jit
wrappers.)

However when hacking on it I ended up taking two different tacks: one
was rewriting bits of the C core in elisp; and the other was trying to
compile bits of elisp (say, stuff from subr.el or something) to C.  It
wasn't clear to me which of these was more fruitful.

Anyway, the backend has some bugs, and it generates "Emacs C core"-style
C code, not "Emacs dynamic module"-style C code.


If you're just interested in performance, though, maybe my JIT is a
better choice.  I haven't tried submitting the JIT here, yet, mainly
because there's still one more feature I want to finish (improved
calling convention, plus maybe inlining); but also because Stefan
pointed out a very interesting JIT paper to me, which I think would
require a ground-up rewrite (avoiding libjit).

Tom

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:

TT> Anyway, the backend has some bugs, and it generates "Emacs C core"-style C
TT> code, not "Emacs dynamic module"-style C code.

Could some of our internal C sources be replaced by Emacs Lisp, which the
Makefile would compile into C as part of the regular build process? This would
allow testing using the Emacs Lisp version, with compilation into C for the
sake of performance. And maybe benchmark would even rule out the need to
compile that file in the end...

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An Emacs benchmarking suite

[Phillip Lord]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>>> So, something like time to create a big list (for CPU), and time to read
>>> a defined file (for IO). Then you could say "this file should parse in
>>> 1x IO base-line + 10x CPU base-line.
>>
>> You assume a linear scalability, but that is not necessarily so.
>> The ratio between performance indices of different codes could vary
>> depending on the build option and the underlying OS.
>
> Another issue is that performance measuring is notoriously difficult
> (even on an otherwise idle machine, let alone on some server that has
> other tasks running at the same time).  So you might be able to catch
> the "10x slower" case easily with a fairly high confidence that the
> problem is indeed that the code got slower, but if you want to catch the
> "20% slowdown" with any kind of confidence (without being drowned in
> false positives), you'll need either a very tight control on the test
> runs, or a good statistical analysis.


Indeed, it would be very broad brush. Or, alternatively, it would be
tied very tightly to a specific infrastructure.

Phil

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "John" == John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:
TT> Anyway, the backend has some bugs, and it generates "Emacs C core"-style C
TT> code, not "Emacs dynamic module"-style C code.

John> Could some of our internal C sources be replaced by Emacs Lisp, which the
John> Makefile would compile into C as part of the regular build process? 

Yes, you can see a random selection of functions converted this way
here:

https://github.com/tromey/emacs/commits/compiler-rewrites-2

The changes include the generated C code, which as you'd expect is quite
ugly.

Tom

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:

TT> Yes, you can see a random selection of functions converted this way here:
TT> https://github.com/tromey/emacs/commits/compiler-rewrites-2

Neat; any benchmark numbers for us?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Re: An idea, now that we have dynamic loading

[Tom Tromey]

>>>>> "John" == John Wiegley <johnw@gnu.org> writes:

>>>>> "TT" == Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com> writes:
TT> Yes, you can see a random selection of functions converted this way here:
TT> https://github.com/tromey/emacs/commits/compiler-rewrites-2

John> Neat; any benchmark numbers for us?

Only what I wrote on github; I haven't done any real benchmarking, and I
haven't done any recently -- nor have I compared it against the JIT.

What I wrote there is:

    Using the bubble sort benchmark from
    http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsLispBenchmark (with the list bumped
    to 1000 elements), with 100 runs, I got some timings:

    Approach 	Seconds
    interpreted 	54.874574673000005
    byte-compiled 	13.390510359999999
    el-compilador 	4.312016277000001

What I did for this test was compile the bubble sort code from Lisp to
C, then build Emacs with it linked in.

Tom