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From: Qiantan Hong <qhong@mit.edu>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>, Fermin <fmfs@posteo.net>,
	Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>,
	Noam Postavsky <npostavs@gmail.com>,
	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
	Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: Question collaborative editing.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 17:48:13 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <0B69D727-B2C1-44FC-8382-FDAB6C7CBDAD@mit.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83blhni3kr.fsf@gnu.org>

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> I'm sorry, I probably miss too much background information here,
> because I don't really understand what is the issue you are describing
> here.  E.g., why is user intent important, when all you need is to
> keep buffer text synchronized between several sessions?

That’s the baseline for collaborative editing, there’s apparently
solution that satisfies this single property (convergence property)
but are extremely bad — e.g. the effect of some user input takes
no effect, or a trivial program displaying an empty buffer for 
every user. Actually if we only want this property there’s much
simpler way than CRDT/OT, e.g. let the server (or one client)
send the whole buffer periodically.

One example of diff not preserving user intent is:
suppose in the buffer there is
“one two one”
And users agree that this sentence should always end in “one”.
Now user A deleted the first two words “one two “
user B inserted “three” between the first “one” and “two”
However, the diff have no idea about users’ agreement
and what exactly user does (unless we get it from modification
hooks). For user A, the diff just see “one” after and assume
that A delete the suffix “two one”. The CRDT then does it job
correctly and gives final synchronization result “one three”.
Clearly, user intent is violated.

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  reply	other threads:[~2020-09-30 17:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20200921120518.35d56p747pr5mhta.ref@Ergus>
2020-09-21 12:05 ` Question collaborative editing Ergus
2020-09-21 13:35   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-21 16:24     ` Ergus
2020-09-21 20:25     ` Karl Fogel
2020-09-24  1:36       ` Ergus
2020-09-24 21:41         ` Fermin
2020-09-25  0:22           ` Ergus
2020-09-25 10:34             ` Fermin
2020-09-26 16:33               ` Ergus
2020-09-29 16:01                 ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-29 21:46                   ` Ergus
2020-09-30  9:52                     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28  0:43               ` Ergus
2020-09-29  0:00                 ` Fermin
2020-09-29  1:01                   ` Noam Postavsky
2020-09-29  8:25                     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 12:45                       ` Ergus
2020-09-29 15:58                         ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-29 16:29                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-29 16:33                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-27  5:10                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-27 12:46                               ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 17:35                         ` Karl Fogel
2020-09-29 21:58                           ` Ergus
2020-09-29 23:40                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-30  0:13                               ` Ergus
2020-09-30  0:47                                 ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-30  7:40                                 ` Karl Fogel
2020-09-30 13:19                                   ` Ergus
2020-09-30 17:00                                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-02 18:48                                     ` Emacs + Etherpad compatibility? (was: Question collaborative editing.) Karl Fogel
2020-10-02 20:34                                       ` Emacs + Etherpad compatibility? Stefan Monnier
2020-10-03 10:01                                         ` Michael Albinus
2020-09-30 13:46                                 ` Question collaborative editing Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-30 13:43                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-30 15:47                                 ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-30 16:19                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-30 17:00                                     ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-30 17:04                                       ` Qiantan Hong
2020-09-30 17:20                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-30 17:48                                           ` Qiantan Hong [this message]
2020-09-30 18:08                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-30 23:11                                               ` Ergus
2020-10-01 13:40                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 15:21                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-01 23:10                                                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-01 15:55                                                   ` Ergus
2020-09-30 17:08                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-01 14:11                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:01                                       ` Ergus
2020-10-01 16:44                                         ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-10-01 16:53                                           ` Ergus
2020-10-01 17:29                                             ` Yuri Khan
2020-10-02  3:00                                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-10-02  7:30                                             ` Michael Albinus
2020-10-02  7:35                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 10:01                                               ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-10-02 11:33                                               ` Ergus
2020-10-02 12:13                                                 ` Michael Albinus
2020-10-04 17:54                                           ` Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Jean Louis
2020-10-04 18:45                                             ` Caio Henrique
2020-10-04 19:48                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 23:59                                                 ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05  0:05                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05  1:08                                                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-05  4:40                                                     ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-05  5:48                                                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05  6:18                                                         ` Qiantan Hong
     [not found]                                                           ` <EC602765-9F1A-4269-9F2E-4F05C50AE1E7@mit.edu>
2020-10-05  8:07                                                             ` crdt.el collaborative real time editing for Emacs Jean Louis
2020-10-05  8:22                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05 14:03                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05 17:05                                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05 18:17                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05 14:11                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05  9:39                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  8:51                                                           ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05  3:53                                                   ` crdt.el - collaborative " Jean Louis
2020-10-05  4:02                                                   ` Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Jean Louis
2020-10-05  4:11                                                     ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05  5:34                                                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05  5:58                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  6:15                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-05  6:51                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  7:31                                                         ` Ergus via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-05  8:44                                                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-05 13:20                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-05 17:20                                                           ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-06  1:03                                                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-06  1:41                                                               ` T.V Raman
2020-10-06  8:52                                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-06 17:32                                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-20 16:15                                                                 ` Ergus
2020-10-20 17:11                                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-20 18:51                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-26 20:36                                                                       ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-27 21:54                                                                         ` Mathias Dahl
2020-10-27 22:45                                                                           ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-29 16:21                                                                             ` Ergus
2020-10-28 16:29                                                                         ` Question collaborative editing - tools to connect Jean Louis
2020-10-28 16:40                                                                           ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-28 17:13                                                                             ` Question collaborative editing - crdt.el, does it use SSL? Jean Louis
2020-10-28 21:51                                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-28 22:36                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-28 23:08                                                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-29  5:43                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-11-02  9:47                                                                                       ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-02 10:02                                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-28 17:20                                                                             ` Question collaborative editing - torify emacs Jean Louis
2020-10-28 18:01                                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-28 18:56                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-29  4:57                                                                             ` Question collaborative editing - tools to connect Richard Stallman
2020-10-31  4:16                                                                           ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-31  5:33                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2020-10-20 18:21                                                                   ` Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Jean Louis
2020-10-06 18:20                                                               ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-07  0:00                                                                 ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-09  1:50                                                                   ` Yuan Fu
2020-10-09  1:58                                                                   ` Yuan Fu
2020-10-09  2:12                                                                     ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-09  2:42                                                                       ` Yuan Fu
2020-10-09  7:04                                                                         ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-09  8:36                                                                           ` joakim
2020-10-09 13:33                                                                             ` Joe Corneli
2020-10-09 15:33                                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-11 17:49                                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-11 18:21                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 18:26                                                                                   ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-11 18:56                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 19:57                                                                                       ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-12  2:26                                                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-12  3:22                                                                                           ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-12 14:40                                                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-12 16:53                                                                                               ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-13 13:31                                                                                                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-10-11 18:40                                                                                 ` Joe Corneli via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09 17:46                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2020-10-09 17:50                                                                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-09 20:31                                                                           ` Karl Fogel
2020-10-10 17:09                                                                             ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-09  7:09                                                                         ` Qiantan Hong
2020-10-05  5:50                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  3:10                                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-20 16:37                                             ` Aurélien Aptel
2020-10-20 18:41                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-26 19:47                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-26 20:26                                                   ` too many Jean Louis
2020-10-28  4:45                                                   ` Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Richard Stallman
2020-10-28 15:08                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-28 16:20                                                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-28 16:33                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-28 16:59                                                           ` Jean Louis

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