From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:32:40 +0900 Message-ID: <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="117629"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ndame , Ahmed Khanzada , Stefan Kangas , Joseph Garvin , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 08:33:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3WH-000UUb-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:33:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38176 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3WG-0002zP-Pd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:33:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39036) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3Va-0002Bg-SW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:32:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3VZ-0007NP-Ul for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:32:50 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-ztdg10021901.me.com ([17.58.6.55]:33907) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3VZ-0007M2-D3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:32:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1587277966; bh=GnzGsxDu1/zynmOiYQtdg0OrsJ9eldgeeLCMQ32QtDI=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=UGxV5PIbqsnEUFj4pDEF1L1qaK3/qgFNYeFHj4nOlroZc2vUoZWnFaYl3kKYKil5w R0vEdg86CxzFFYP+4Znoi9SQGseZt1h3UrnAQJq8vEWlqiVdGfmyDJk/jtzl8dfNMU HEVsEXjzYDCwW35xvjcyiSNM1j1Eap0Fpv8GqPv+ccCX7NMqc6GPXIXbhIE2CM1QX2 +N+cubMiLGT3bNc5I6I9t06Uf2fLmhZZ31sszo/PO7ZddjctF4cR8OPnTYTHiFgZ5E F5KYR4Wjb0RTRv56dW3xJHY/lVlG7O97ItH2JIui2vuH8lywY2Ib0llEUbbsPm261y unmrMXwsA7sfw== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-ztdg10021901.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B3613880223; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:32:43 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-18_10:2020-04-17, 2020-04-18 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=4 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004190059 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.55; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-ztdg10021901.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.55 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247276 Archived-At: Po Lu 작성: > ndame writes: > >> I agree that Emacs is easier to program once you learned it, but >> other editors, like VSCode, has the advantage that you don't have to >> learn a quirky and unfamiliar language first. > >> Many developers know Javascript and even if one doesn't it's more similar >> to mainstream languages than lisp, so extension writers mostly has to >> learn the VSCode API only. > > Here's the problem: You have to learn the VS Code API. I'd say learning > that, and becoming reasonably proficient at it takes longer than > skimming through the Emacs Lisp intro. Skimming the Emacs Lisp intro doesn’t make one reasonably proficient in programming Emacs packages though. For one to understand how Emacs works (with it’s obscure naming scheme like windows), one has to jump a lot of hoops, and I can guarantee that one who is familiar with Algol-family languages can pick up the VSCode API much faster than picking up Lisp, Emacs, and the Emacs API. >> VScode has a very nice out of the box experience. If you want support >> for a language then it's one click to install it and it installs the >> necessary scaffolding too, like a language server for the language. > > We have several starter packs, with similarly nice OOTB experiences. But the default Emacs doesn’t have that, and that’s the problem. Which means that, for one to have nice OOTB experiences, one has to have a really good reason to use Emacs (like learning Common Lisp), then google how to configure Emacs, then encounter Spacemacs without knowing anything about evil or helm or ivy. And proficient Emacs users usually recommend not using a starter kit in the internet. (That’s my experience on trying to use Emacs.) >> And it has Electron for display support which has a mature browser >> engine behind it, so it can support advanced graphics features out >> of the box on all the supported platforms. > > Electron is not free software (https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1167), > and is definitely not as well suited to providing an integrated > experience like Emacs. I don’t think OP was saying that we should use Electron for Emacs, but more that due to using Electron, it gives the stability that Emacs doesn’t give. Maybe you’ve only used Emacs on Linux, but at least on macOS, Emacs glitches, locks, and crashes very frequently, and that’s a non-starter for a lot of people. > For instance, even if you render raw HTML inside VS Code, you would not > be able to grab the region using VSC APIs. I'm not sure if the VSC API > allows interacting with the DOM, but from what I can tell, it can't. > > There are also various other issues, with relying on a lower-level > abstraction for "nice graphics features" (the DOM) that is outside the > editors control. > >> Out of the box experience matters. Familiarity matters (e.g supporting >> standard keys on the platfrom for cut and paste). Nice appearance matters. > > We have Cua mode. No, you don't need to have it enabled by default, > since it would result in unnecessary breakage for old users. It would > be nice if the startup screen informed users of features such as the > (hypothetical) GTK theme previously mentioned, and Cua. > > I personally think that the Emacs bindings are better, and in the end > work better with Emacs itself, but I do agree that newcomers should be > allowed to familiarize themselves with Emacs before moving their > workflow (and habits) to it entirely. > >> No wonder lot of developers choose VScode: >> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=emacs%20editor,visual%20studio%20code > > We're here to change that :)