From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [PATCH] Re: About the :distant-foreground face attribute Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:07:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <093a5de1-9e40-46df-b65e-aa0b2d9c60f1@default> References: <87bnzo9cja.fsf@gnu.org> <59B7E7FC-48D0-4737-B1BB-FFAC5BA9E07A@swipnet.se> <874n5f3162.fsf@gnu.org> <83fvozf86g.fsf@gnu.org> <87r48javwe.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnzmfjxe.fsf@gnu.org> <52D3E689.6050902@dancol.org> <8E16225F-53EF-498A-AB35-66EB9B33B859@swipnet.se> <52D43360.6050605@dancol.org> <9BD01B88-AF13-44DD-8DBE-4598BAC136DD@swipnet.se> <52D45C73.6090906@dancol.org> <52D47289.2020700@dancol.org> <52D4A23E.4030802@dancol.org> <2798eddb-c6c7-4b73-8bd0-e4bd72f3405e@default> <52D5BC79.7050706@dancol.org> <432c1d5b-0b1e-4bf9-83ec-551d16f1f515@default> <52D5DC28.9070808@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389755317 17878 80.91.229.3 (15 Jan 2014 03:08:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:08:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel To: Daniel Colascione , =?iso-8859-1?B?SmFuIERq5HJ2?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 15 04:08:42 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W3GqO-0006DD-73 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 04:08:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51791 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W3GqN-0003ZR-O6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:08:39 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W3GqC-0003YH-GB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:08:37 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W3Gq3-000774-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:08:28 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:42338) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W3Gpu-000756-Ru; Tue, 14 Jan 2014 22:08:10 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s0F3809l030896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:08:01 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0F37vnu009040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:07:59 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0009.oracle.com (abhmp0009.oracle.com [141.146.116.15]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s0F37vU2003358; Wed, 15 Jan 2014 03:07:57 GMT In-Reply-To: <52D5DC28.9070808@dancol.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6680.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:168415 Archived-At: One more try. > >>> What you are saying is like saying that you think you have a > >>> license to change the value of option `default-frame-alist' > >>> automatically, if the current value is nil, because that's > >>> also the default value. > >> > >> Well, yes, we do have such a license. By this logic, we can't > >> change any default ever. > > > > Did you notice "automatically" and "current value" in that > > sentence? I'm not talking about the license of Emacs Dev to > > redefine the _default_ value. Please read that sentence again, because you keep going on about how Emacs can change the default value. That's not the point. > > I'm talking about license to change the _current_ value of an > > option, on the fly, automatically, behind the user's back... > > - just because the current value happens to coincide with > > the default value (`nil' in this case). > > > > A user's not customizing an option away from the default value > > is not implicit permission for Emacs to twiddle the current > > value to something different. >=20 > I honestly don't understand what you're talking about... > If a user hasn't customized an option and has relied on the > default, we can modify the default values when we update Emacs. Yes, yes. Emacs Dev can change the default value. No one says otherwise. What the code being added now does is more than that. It changes the appearance of the face on the fly - the current state, not the default value. And the rationale you gave for dynamically changing the face appearance was that the user had not customized the face away from the default spec, so she must not care. That does not follow. My point was that a license to change the value dynamically does not come from the user not changing the default value. The default value for option `foo' is 42. The user does not change that. That fact alone does not let you presume that the user does not mind if you change the value of `foo' on the fly in some contexts to 3000. Yes, the analogy is not exact. You are not changing the `foreground' attribute itself. You are changing the face's foreground appearance. The `foreground' attribute says nil or "LightBlue" or whatever the default defface specifies, but on the fly the apparent foreground sometimes ends up being "HelloKittyPink" (even though the attribute value has not changed). You can do that, but your being able to do that does not follow from the user not having customized the option.