From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Customizable modes and package.el Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 20:33:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0785150e-447a-4a1d-b785-624f8eb1a5b4@default> References: <87fv8mcz6h.fsf@gmail.com> <450F4FF4-8ABE-4BC2-B944-67D10971EEC7@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1446957243 5353 80.91.229.3 (8 Nov 2015 04:34:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:34:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Bruce Connor , Emacs developers To: Kaushal Modi , David Reitter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 08 05:33:50 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvHfp-00065g-Op for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Nov 2015 05:33:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46150 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvHfo-0007kl-Qo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 23:33:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60698) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvHfc-0007jo-An for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 23:33:37 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvHfZ-0004Ry-4r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 23:33:36 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:30712) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvHfY-0004RQ-Up for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 23:33:33 -0500 Original-Received: from aserv0021.oracle.com (aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id tA84XTOM003400 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:33:29 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA84XTUM006740 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:33:29 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0011.oracle.com (abhmp0011.oracle.com [141.146.116.17]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tA84XT6F002731; Sun, 8 Nov 2015 04:33:29 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0021.oracle.com [141.146.126.233] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.69 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:193584 Archived-At: > I also concur that emacs should not try to modify the user's init file. +1. Customize can modify `custom-file'. `bookmark.el' can modify a user's bookmarks file(s). `desktop.el' can modify a user's desktop file(s). `package.el' can modify package-related files... But programmatic changes should not diddle with a user's init file. The way things are now (still), such diddling is the default behavior for Customize. Shame. To prevent this, a user needs to create and load a `custom-file'. And s?he won't even find out about this possibility without diving into the depths of the Customize section of the Emacs manual. Looking at node `Init File' won't give a clue about this safer and more sane possibility. My guess is that relatively few Emacs users have a `custom-file'. Most just let Customize write to their init files (if they use Customize at all). That's not good. Imagine if `bookmark.el', `desktop.el', and all the rest wrote all of their Lisp code directly to a users init file! It's high time that Customize learned to behave the same way. Yes, this would mean that users would need to load their `custom-file' somewhere in their init file. And yes, just where they choose to do that in the init file can make a difference. And yes, there are different use cases - it is not as simple as always loading it first or last. A start would be for the manual to encourage using a `custom-file', in its discussion of init files. And it wouldn't hurt to include a simple example of defining it and loading it in an init file. A user doesn't have to be an expert in all the intricacies of Customize to learn how to define and load a `custom-file'. [There should also perhaps be some mention of the possibly confusing fact that `custom-file' is itself a user option, i.e., something managed by Customize! Clearly it is a special option, in that you cannot depend on it becoming properly defined by loading the file that defines it!]