From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why are so many great packages not trying to get included in GNU Emacs? WAS: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:02:57 +0900 Message-ID: <04173E07-AFCB-4586-B68D-31F9B506CEBB@traduction-libre.org> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1wi7a8o.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdteybt.fsf@runbox.com> <87368wrvf5.fsf@yahoo.com> <86k126d83n.wl-me@enzu.ru> <83pnbyckvv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="15511"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 04:03:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRnh4-0003yY-NY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 04:03:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47132 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRnh3-0001U5-LC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:03:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRngK-0000ui-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:03:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRngJ-0002iB-BL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:03:08 -0400 Original-Received: from relay7-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.200]:50017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRngI-0002H7-F6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:03:06 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 128.53.235.90 Original-Received: from [10.0.1.13] (pl12634.ag0304.nttpc.ne.jp [128.53.235.90]) (Authenticated sender: jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org) by relay7-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFF7A20002 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:03:00 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.200; envelope-from=jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org; helo=relay7-d.mail.gandi.net X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/23 20:20:25 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.70.183.200 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247649 Archived-At: > On Apr 24, 2020, at 9:51, chad wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:46 PM Jean-Christophe Helary = wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2020, at 2:07, Stefan Kangas wrote: > > - Misconceptions about how hard it is to work with emacs-devel. >=20 > That's something that documentation can fix. >=20 > I'm not sure how. I think the widespread conception is that working = with emacs-devel is more difficult than working with many, many other = free- and open-source projects, and I think that conception is correct. That depends on where you come from. A lot of people have not been = contaminated by the entitlement that comes with the "I'm sending a PR, = please check it in" generated by the Github culture. I'm not saying that = PRs are bad, just that a lot of people think that whatever they do is = OK. Documenting means stating that Emacs is not just another "open source = project you can contribute to in the weekends" (although that's also = possible). It is Free Software and it is robust and it is here to last. = All that comes with requirements and that's fair. > Compared to "fork the project and submit a pull request" or "publish a = package on melpa", following emacs' patch guidelines is harder. Please. As a totally non-developer I was able, with the guidance of a = lot of people here, to follow the rules and get some code in the emacs = core code and in package.el. Yes, it is harder because the requirements = are different. > Emacs requires additional paperwork. I proposed a solution in my suggestions. > Updating the documentation (NEWS, Changelog, the info manuals) is = harder and involves tools, tech, and practices that are unfamiliar to = most potential developers. And if they can learn emacs-lisp enough to contribute something, they = can certainly learn a few extra things. > Using debbugs has improved a lot in the past few years, but is still a = pain-point for many. Following the emacs-devel mailing list is, let's = say, not a welcoming experience for everyone. It is an *always* enriching experience. > That doesn't even touch on the difficulties of interacting with the = core. >=20 > I think that the end result of emacs' processes is high-quality code = that runs on many more systems than the vast majority of software, but I = don't think most new developers are shying away from working on emacs = because of the lack or quality of the documentation. Maybe we're not talking about the same thing ? When I say document the process, I mean putting it in nice colors on the = web site, so as to ease the pain for people who are used to nice colors = on web sites but who can still go deeper and commit themselves to = serious code. Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune