From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customize buttons that change user's custom fileshouldaskforconfirmation Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:46:32 +0100 Message-ID: <011901c509ff$59f7ce10$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> References: <00e301c509c1$9c761690$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107442170 28188 80.91.229.6 (3 Feb 2005 14:49:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:49:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: abraham@dina.kvl.dk, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier , miles@gnu.org, Drew Adams , rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 03 15:49:21 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1CwiIK-0001X7-00 for ; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 15:49:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CwiVf-00080p-4K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:03:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CwiU7-0007E6-Iy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:01:32 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CwiTy-000798-Jm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:01:23 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CwiTx-00077t-M0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 10:01:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [81.228.11.107] (helo=av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CwiHB-0008Fu-3o; Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:48:09 -0500 Original-Received: by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 5C4EE37E6E; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:48:08 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av1-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA4937E46; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:48:08 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from sedrcw11488 (t1o58p232.telia.com [62.20.164.232]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with SMTP id D76AC37E45; Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:48:02 +0100 (CET) Original-To: "Kim F. Storm" , X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:32810 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:32810 lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se Lund ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim F. Storm" > Miles Bader writes: > > > Your table helps, but I think it's important to use the proposed > > operations, not what the current code does. Here's my version: > > > > Set: Field => Current > > Save: Field => Current, Saved > > > > Get Current: Current => Field > > Get Saved: Saved => Field > > Get Default: Standard => Field Yes, it is more easy to understand (at least for me). But what happened to Erase Customization? I do not believe that this always can be done with Get Default+Save. > To summarise: > ============= > > I suggest the following button names: > > > > The button does "F => C" when enabled/confirmed. > > This is an expert command, so it shall be disabled by default > (e.g. like narrow-to-region), causing Emacs to ask the novice user if > he really wants to do this. I think the situation is a bit different for Emacs than for other applications. In most applications the options are easy to understand and set. It is not so for all options in Emacs. Therefore I believe that a novice user really can benefit from beeing able to Set and test before Save. > The button does "F => C,S" and thus "C => S" when F == C. Yes, it does Set+Save. Can anyone find any reason to break this up? > The button does either "C => F" or "S => C,F". The idea has some benefits but I see two problems. First this would give one question for every option in the customization buffer. Second normally means something like "discard unsaved changes and close window/frame". > The button first asks the user for confirmation. > If ok it does "D => F" (does not update C or S). Is not this the same idea as Miles have+confirmation? (And the same problem with the missing "Erase"?) Why a confirmatin in this case? > It then prints a message > Remember to use or to activate/save the values. Good idea. Customize does something similar today. > Also the user should be offered to save unsaved customizations when he > exits emacs. Yes, but... ----------- * My summary:* 1) I like Miles suggestion, it is easy to understand, but there should be an "Erase" too. 2) Maybe the semantics of "Get *" must be pointed out, since it is probably not an operation that the user has seen somewhere else. 3) I believe that Kims concern for that the interface must easy to understand from what the user knows from other applications should be met as far as possible. The exact words are as important as the semantics here. For example currently customize speaks about "the text in this buffer" - I believe that it should speak about "fields" instead (where appropriate). 4) Messages guiding the user are important (but they are no excuse not trying to make them obsolete by even better design). 5) Options are however more complicated sometimes in Emacs. "Set" should therefore be availabe for testing. (And we should try to make the options more simple.) 6) Offer to save: yes, but where? I would suggest when closing the customize buffer.