From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Lennart Borgman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Eliminating "changed in Emacs outside of Customize" Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:04:21 +0100 Message-ID: <00ac01c5096a$cfaf6950$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1107378670 9034 80.91.229.2 (2 Feb 2005 21:11:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:11:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 02 22:11:09 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CwRm1-0006UJ-7W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 22:10:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CwRzC-0002l5-Vo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:24:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CwRyR-0002JL-1c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:23:43 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1CwRyL-0002GV-3g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:23:37 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1CwRyK-0002F5-Fg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:23:36 -0500 Original-Received: from [81.228.11.109] (helo=av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CwRg8-00012i-8Y; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 16:04:48 -0500 Original-Received: by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix, from userid 502) id 7748A37E45; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:04:47 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net [81.228.11.164]) by av3-1-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687E837E42; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:04:47 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from sedrcw11488 (t2o58p190.telia.com [62.20.165.190]) by smtp3-2-sn1.fre.skanova.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 58D8537E64; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:04:45 +0100 (CET) Original-To: "Drew Adams" , "Per Abrahamsen" , "Stefan Monnier" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:32773 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:32773 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drew Adams" > I still have the specific question of _what the problem is_ with the > scenario that you and Stefan (and I) described: a setq (in .emacs or a > library) executed after custom-set-variables. Yes, a setq changes the > current value so that it is no longer the `saved-value' - but so what? The novice user changes a value in customize, saves and restarts Emacs. Then he find that the value is still the same. His conclusion is that there is something wrong with Emacs. He does not dare to use it any more. > The original question was that: "What would be wrong > with treating, in the Customize UI, outside changes the same as > inside changes?" I think the distinction is good. It was however very confusing the first time I saw it. When I now see the distinction between user variables (should only be changed by the user) and others it is much more clear. Should not this distinction should be pointed out very clearly in Info under Easy Customization? I would prefer a marriage between set-variable and customize however. One problem I see (see above) is the order of execution at startup of Emacs. This was to some extent discussed when we wrote about custom-file. I still believe it would be good to have custom-file executed after .emacs by default. In that case customize could warn for "rouge" custom variable states.