Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Lennart Borgman]

There is a web site for usability, http://openusability.org/, which 
welcomes open source projects. The idea seems to be to gain some support 
from usability experts for those projects. Is this something for Emacs?

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Robert J. Chassell]

    There is a web site for usability, http://openusability.org/,
    which welcomes open source projects.  The idea seems to be to gain
    some support from usability experts for those projects.

You and http://openusability.org/ know about Emacspeak, right?

(Emacspeak is a full scale computational environment, providing
shells, songs, mail, and everything else to the permanently blind as
well as to the situationally blind, people like drivers.

Currently, 

    Project page

        http://code.google.com/p/emacspeak

    CVS at

        http://emacspeak.googlecode.com/svn/
)

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                         
    bob@rattlesnake.com                         GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

    There is a web site for usability, http://openusability.org/, which 
    welcomes open source projects.

We don't want to refer to any GNU software as "open source",
or encourage others to do so.  Could we ask for help thru this site
without doing so?

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Lennart Borgman]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     There is a web site for usability, http://openusability.org/, which 
>     welcomes open source projects.
>
> We don't want to refer to any GNU software as "open source",
> or encourage others to do so.  Could we ask for help thru this site
> without doing so?
>   
I do not know. I just stambled on the site and thought that it was a 
good idea. I think I was a bit triggered. Just a week ago I installed 
Ubuntu GNU/Linux to give it a try again. Ubuntu uses GNOME as its 
default desktop. To my surprise I could not use the keyboard to navigate 
the "start menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...

I found it hard to believe that such a big problem exists in GNOME. I 
decided to wait until this problem is fixed. I am thinking about 
contacting the GNOME developers.

The site above seems to have low traffic and currently there does not 
seem to be much use to put Emacs there.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Paul Pogonyshev]

Lennart Borgman wrote:

> ...Just a week ago I installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux to give it a try again. Ubuntu
> uses GNOME as its  default desktop. To my surprise I could not use the keyboard
> to navigate  the "start menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...

Did you try Alt+F1?

Paul

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Lennart Borgman]

Paul Pogonyshev wrote:
> Lennart Borgman wrote:
>
>   
>> ...Just a week ago I installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux to give it a try again. Ubuntu
>> uses GNOME as its  default desktop. To my surprise I could not use the keyboard
>> to navigate  the "start menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...
>>     
>
> Did you try Alt+F1?
>
> Paul
>   

Thanks. No, I had no reason to assume that it was Alt+F1 I should use. 
On w32 you can use C-ESC or the windows keys.

I see no reason that GNOME should not adopt to this. It is really a 
usability issue for w32 users. It would certainly be attractive to 
windows users if those keys worked - and I guess that is one of the goals.

But this is of course of topic here.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Mikiya Matsuzaka]

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Hou about this start with?

This might be a kind of talking about usability, although
RMS said in mail it seems not good idea to him.

The folowing is an experimental implementation of readline-
like interface in shell buffer.

;------------------------------------------------------------------------

;;;;
;;;; C-z (in any buffer) pops up shell buffer.
;;;; C-p, C-n, C-a and C-l, work just like readline in a prompt line.
;;;; C-x f goes to fundamental-mode and C-z restores it again.
;;;;

(require 'shell)

(global-set-key "\C-z" '(lambda ()
                          (interactive)
                          (shell)
                          (shell-mode)
                          (end-of-buffer)))

(add-hook 'shell-mode-hook
          '(lambda ()
             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-xf"    'fundamental-mode)
             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-i"     'comint-dynamic-complete)
             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-a"     'comint-bol)
             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-p"
               '(lambda (n)
                  (interactive "p")
                  (comint-previous-input n)))

             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-n"
               '(lambda (n)
                  (interactive "p")
                  (comint-next-input n)))

             (define-key shell-mode-map "\C-l"
               '(lambda ()
                  (interactive)
                  (recenter 0)))))

;------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

    I found it hard to believe that such a big problem exists in GNOME. I 
    decided to wait until this problem is fixed. I am thinking about 
    contacting the GNOME developers.

Please don't just think about it.  Please do contact them.  I am not
sure whether this bug is in the standard version of GNOME, but they
can tell you.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

    > ...Just a week ago I installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux to give it a try again. Ubuntu
    > uses GNOME as its  default desktop. To my surprise I could not use the keyboard
    > to navigate  the "start menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...

    Did you try Alt+F1?

One can't expect users to know about that command.
In order for that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem,
something on the screen needs to say how to use it.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Mikhail Gusarov]

You (rms@gnu.org) wrote:

 RS> One can't expect users to know about that command.  In order for
 RS> that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem, something on the
 RS> screen needs to say how to use it.

Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
on the screen?

-- 
JID: dottedmag@jabber.dottedmag.net

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Lennart Borgman]

Richard Stallman wrote:
>     I found it hard to believe that such a big problem exists in GNOME. I 
>     decided to wait until this problem is fixed. I am thinking about 
>     contacting the GNOME developers.
>
> Please don't just think about it.  Please do contact them.  I am not
> sure whether this bug is in the standard version of GNOME, but they
> can tell you.
>   
I did. I took it up on the mailing list below as a usability and 
accessibility issue. The reactions were mixed but I hope someone of the 
Gnome developers who is positive can make something, maybe use my 
suggestions:

    http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2006-August/msg00023.html

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Lennart Borgman]

Mikhail Gusarov wrote:
> Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
> things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
> on the screen?
>   

Maybe all-or-nothing-thinking disturbes clear thinking?

The problem was that in that specific situation I told about there was 
no way at all to get information about how to proceed. Is not that a 
usability issue?

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Chong Yidong]

Mikhail Gusarov <dottedmag@dottedmag.net> writes:

> You (rms@gnu.org) wrote:
>
>  RS> One can't expect users to know about that command.  In order for
>  RS> that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem, something on the
>  RS> screen needs to say how to use it.
>
> Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
> things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
> on the screen?

When you start up Emacs, it does display some basic keybindings, and
tells you how to get help.

RE: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Drew Adams]

    >  RS> One can't expect users to know about that command.  In order for
    >  RS> that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem, something on the
    >  RS> screen needs to say how to use it.
    >
    > Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
    > things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
    > on the screen?

    When you start up Emacs, it does display some basic keybindings, and
    tells you how to get help.

Perhaps also let the start-up screen explictly mention `C-h b'?  E.g.,

  `C-h b' shows you all available key bindings in any buffer.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Chong Yidong]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>     >  RS> One can't expect users to know about that command.  In order for
>     >  RS> that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem, something on the
>     >  RS> screen needs to say how to use it.
>     >
>     > Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
>     > things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
>     > on the screen?
>
>     When you start up Emacs, it does display some basic keybindings, and
>     tells you how to get help.
>
> Perhaps also let the start-up screen explictly mention `C-h b'?  E.g.,
>
>   `C-h b' shows you all available key bindings in any buffer.

I don't think `C-h b' is useful for new users; it overwhelms with too
much information.  The current startup screen seems sufficient.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

     RS> One can't expect users to know about that command.  In order for
     RS> that to be the solution to the no-mouse problem, something on the
     RS> screen needs to say how to use it.

    Usability is about using things, not about learning to use
    things. Would you like to have every possible Emacs keybinding shown
    on the screen?

Emacs is not a GUI designed for beginning users.
It is a mistake to take a size fits all" approach to these questions.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Richard Stallman]

    Perhaps also let the start-up screen explictly mention `C-h b'?  E.g.,

      `C-h b' shows you all available key bindings in any buffer.

I think of that as a rather advanced help command,
not among the basic few that are the first to mention.

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:37:55 +0200 Lennart Borgman wrote:

> Richard Stallman wrote:
>>     There is a web site for usability,
>> http://openusability.org/, which     welcomes open source
>> projects.
>>
>> We don't want to refer to any GNU software as "open source",
>> or encourage others to do so.  Could we ask for help thru this site
>> without doing so?
>>   
> I do not know. I just stambled on the site and thought that
> it was a good idea. I think I was a bit triggered. Just a
> week ago I installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux to give it a try
> again. Ubuntu uses GNOME as its default desktop. To my
> surprise I could not use the keyboard to navigate the "start
> menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...

Then probably gnome is not the best "desktop" for you
anyway.  Try some keyboard friendly Window Manager
(e.g. ratpoison, ion or, if you prefer "classic" management
of windows, fvwm).  There are lots of free window managers
available.

David

Re: Is OpenUsability something for Emacs?

[Miles Bader]

Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se> writes:
> To my surprise I could not use the keyboard to navigate 
> the "start menu". I had no mouse attached to that computer ...
>
> I found it hard to believe that such a big problem exists in GNOME. I 
> decided to wait until this problem is fixed. I am thinking about 
> contacting the GNOME developers.

FWIW, Alt-F1 brings up the Gnome "start" menu for me (after which you
can use the arrow keys move around in it).

[You can customize those global keybindings by selecting "Desktop >
Preferences > Keyboard Shortcuts" .]

-Miles
-- 
Any man who is a triangle, has thee right, when in Cartesian Space, to
have angles, which when summed, come to know more, nor no less, than
nine score degrees, should he so wish.  [TEMPLE OV THEE LEMUR]