RE: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

RE: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Drew Adams]

I think this is the kind of thing Richard was trying to say should not be sent
to the entire universe.

This mail, like many others that are similar, means nothing to me. I didn't file
this bug. I wasn't even aware of it. I'm still not aware of it, by mail - except
for this cryptic message.

Please try to focus the send list for this kind of thing.


> From: Stefan Monnier
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
> To: 21@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
> Subject: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*
> 
> If you can try the Emacs-CVS trunk, I've installed a change there that
> might have fixed your problem.
> 
> 
>         Stefan

Re: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Joe Wells]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> I think this is the kind of thing Richard was trying to say should not be sent
> to the entire universe.
>
> This mail, like many others that are similar, means nothing to me. I didn't file
> this bug. I wasn't even aware of it. I'm still not aware of it, by mail - except
> for this cryptic message.
>
> Please try to focus the send list for this kind of thing.

Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is the
bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  This is
what Stefan did.

Stefan could have sent this e-mail privately, but then it would not be
recorded as part of the bug report's log, which would be bad.

It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is CC-ed
to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  Simply turning this off would be bad.

There is no simple solution, although there may be a complicated one.

-- 
Joe


-- 
Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity
registered under charity number SC000278.

RE: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Drew Adams]

> > I think this is the kind of thing Richard was trying to say 
> should not be sent
> > to the entire universe.
> >
> > This mail, like many others that are similar, means nothing 
> to me. I didn't file
> > this bug. I wasn't even aware of it. I'm still not aware of 
> it, by mail - except
> > for this cryptic message.
> >
> > Please try to focus the send list for this kind of thing.
> 
> Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is the
> bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  This is
> what Stefan did.
> 
> Stefan could have sent this e-mail privately, but then it would not be
> recorded as part of the bug report's log, which would be bad.
> 
> It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is CC-ed
> to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  Simply turning this off would be bad.
> 
> There is no simple solution, although there may be a complicated one.

Good explanation. Unfortunate situation.

It took me a while, searching through all of the mail copies I kept, to see if
this wasn't perhaps a bug I had filed. There is nothing in Stefan's reply mail
to indicate who reported the bug or when it was reported - just an oblique
reference to "your problem". 

Not to mention that it is not enough to sort by Subject, since "Scrolling..."
collates differently from "bug#21: Scrolling...".

Anyway, the bug logging is a plus, even if it is still quite primitive.

Re: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Richard M Stallman]

    Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is the
    bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  This is
    what Stefan did.

That is a pain in the neck for everyone on bug-gnu-emacs.
It should be cc'd to emacs-bug-tracker instead.

    It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is CC-ed
    to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  Simply turning this off would be bad.

I don't see anything bad about it.
Would you like to try to substantiate that statement?

    There is no simple solution, although there may be a complicated one.

I've stated a simple solution above.

Re: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Drew Adams wrote:
> Not to mention that it is not enough to sort by Subject, since
> "Scrolling..." collates differently from "bug#21: Scrolling...".

That's only the case for early bugs which were sent while debbugs was
being tested. All messages now will have the bug number prefexed with
the original subject.
 

Don Armstrong

-- 
Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves
exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves
only the unanimity of the graveyard.
 -- Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Richard M Stallman wrote:
>     Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is
>     the bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.
>     This is what Stefan did.
> 
> That is a pain in the neck for everyone on bug-gnu-emacs.

In what way?

> It should be cc'd to emacs-bug-tracker instead.

This is an example of a message which would have normally just been
sent to bug-gnu-emacs anyway. Think of nnn@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
as just an alias for bug-gnu-emacs in the case where nnn is a bug is
in the emacs package.

>     It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is
>     CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically. Simply turning this off
>     would be bad.
> 
> I don't see anything bad about it.
> Would you like to try to substantiate that statement?

If the messages don't go through the bug tracker before they hit
bug-gnu-emacs, you'd have no clue what bug is being discussed, nor
where to look to see the followup information, and you additionally
have to be subscribed to some other mailing list to get any
information about the bug at all.

We can easily stop sending all messages to bug-gnu-emacs if we want
to, but then no messages would go to bug-gnu-emacs at all, not even
the ones that were originally sent there.

From what I see, the primary issue is one of the bugs not being
threaded properly, which Stefan already raised with me, and is
http://bugs.debian.org/485697


Don Armstrong

-- 
I leave the show floor, but not before a pack of caffeinated Jolt gum
is thrust at me by a hyperactive girl screaming, "Chew more! Do more!"
The American will to consume more and produce more personified in a
stick of gum. I grab it.
 -- Chad Dickerson

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: bug#21: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is
>> the bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.
>> This is what Stefan did.
>> 
>> That is a pain in the neck for everyone on bug-gnu-emacs.

> In what way?

>> It should be cc'd to emacs-bug-tracker instead.

> This is an example of a message which would have normally just been
> sent to bug-gnu-emacs anyway. Think of nnn@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
> as just an alias for bug-gnu-emacs in the case where nnn is a bug is
> in the emacs package.

>> It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is
>> CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically. Simply turning this off
>> would be bad.
>> 
>> I don't see anything bad about it.
>> Would you like to try to substantiate that statement?

> If the messages don't go through the bug tracker before they hit
> bug-gnu-emacs, you'd have no clue what bug is being discussed, nor
> where to look to see the followup information, and you additionally
> have to be subscribed to some other mailing list to get any
> information about the bug at all.

> We can easily stop sending all messages to bug-gnu-emacs if we want
> to, but then no messages would go to bug-gnu-emacs at all, not even
> the ones that were originally sent there.

> From what I see, the primary issue is one of the bugs not being
> threaded properly, which Stefan already raised with me, and is
> http://bugs.debian.org/485697

I'm afraid there's a little misunderstanding, here.  I believe Richard
is not opposed to this message going to bug-gnu-emacs.  It was Drew Adams
who complained about it.  I think Drew's complaint is that the message is
out-of-context because I didn't include any References: or
In-Reply-To: header.  So he's not opposed to seeing those messages
either, he was just annoyed at this particular one being useless.


        Stefan

which bug messages should be sent where? (was: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*)

[Joe Wells]

[ I am removing “bug#21” from the subject because it seems this
  triggers the bug tracker to add the message to the log for this bug
  in the bug tracker.  Can someone please post a description of the
  complete interface? ]

Richard M Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     Any e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (where XYZ is the
>     bug number) will be CC-ed to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  This is
>     what Stefan did.
>
> That is a pain in the neck for everyone on bug-gnu-emacs.
> It should be cc'd to emacs-bug-tracker instead.
>
>     It is good that e-mail sent to XYZ@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com is CC-ed
>     to bug-gnu-emacs automatically.  Simply turning this off would be bad.
>
> I don't see anything bad about it.
> Would you like to try to substantiate that statement?

The important question is:

  What is the purpose of the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list (and the
  gnu.emacs.bug newsgroup which is connected to the mailing list)?

It is very good that there is now a bug tracker for Emacs.

However, the existence of the bug tracker means the purpose of the
bug-gnu-emacs mailing list needs to be reassessed.

I believe the purpose of the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list should now be
this:

  The bug-gnu-emacs mailing list is (1) where people can send bug
  reports and (2) where people who want to help can watch for bug
  reports and the discussion of bug reports.

>     There is no simple solution, although there may be a complicated
>     one.
>
> I've stated a simple solution above.

You could also solve the “problem” by unsubscribing from the mailing
list.

Your “solution” would make it too difficult for people like me to
watch the discussion and contribute where we have useful knowledge to
share.  Your “solution” could make things easier for some people, but
it would also make it harder for other people to help in solving bugs.

I suggest that a long-term solution should be thought about more
carefully.

I hope this message is helpful.

-- 
Joe


-- 
Heriot-Watt University is a Scottish charity
registered under charity number SC000278.

Re: which bug messages should be sent where?

[Jason Rumney]

Joe Wells wrote:

> I believe the purpose of the bug-gnu-emacs mailing list should now be
> this:
>
>   The bug-gnu-emacs mailing list is (1) where people can send bug
>   reports and (2) where people who want to help can watch for bug
>   reports and the discussion of bug reports.

I agree, and the messages sent to bug-gnu-emacs should essentially be 
the same messages as before (ie no control messages, and done messages 
should be the raw message as the developer sent it, not prepended with 
standard messages and the original bug report.

The way I think the mail forwarding should work is this:


bug-gnu-emacs incoming mail address + numbered addresses for existing bugs
            |
            V
      bug tracker
            |
            V
bug-gnu-emacs mailing list and newsgroup


emacs-pretest-bug incoming mail address + numbered addresses for 
existing bugs
            |
            V
      bug tracker
            |
            V
  emacs-devel mailing list

control email address
       |
       V
   bug tracker
       |
       V
emacs-bug-tracker mailing list
(could also receive all the above messages)

The way it currently seems to work is:

bug-gnu-emacs incoming mail address
        |             |
        V             |
   bug tracker        |
        |             |
        V             V
bug-gnu-emacs mailing list and newsgroup


emacs-pretest-bug incoming mail address
        |             |
        V             |
   bug tracker        V
        |        emacs-devel mailing list
        V           
bug-gnu-emacs mailing list and newsgroup

control incoming mail address + numbered addresses for existing bugs
        |
        V
    bug tracker
        |
        V
bug-gnu-emacs mailing list and newsgroup


Which give us duplicates on the lists, and results in pretest bugs and 
control messages going out to the general bug list.

Re: which bug messages should be sent where?

[Don Armstrong]

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Jason Rumney wrote:
> I agree, and the messages sent to bug-gnu-emacs should essentially
> be the same messages as before (ie no control messages, and done
> messages should be the raw message as the developer sent it, not
> prepended with standard messages and the original bug report.

I can swap these around for messages sent to the maintainer and
mailing list so the -done is first, and the original message is at the
end so the informative bit is the first thing that is seen.

> The way I think the mail forwarding should work is this:
>
>
> bug-gnu-emacs incoming mail address + numbered addresses for existing bugs
>            |
>            V
>      bug tracker
>            |
>            V
> bug-gnu-emacs mailing list and newsgroup

This is how it actually works.

> emacs-pretest-bug incoming mail address + numbered addresses for  
> existing bugs
>            |
>            V
>      bug tracker
>            |
>            V
>  emacs-devel mailing list

[I didn't set this up, so I'm not sure.]



Don Armstrong

-- 
No amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free
[...] You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him.
 -- Robert Heinlein _Revolt in 2010_ p54

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: bug#388: which bug messages should be sent where? (was: Scrolling occasionally stops in *compilation*)

[Richard M Stallman]

    Your ?solution? would make it too difficult for people like me to
    watch the discussion and contribute where we have useful knowledge to
    share.

With all due respect, I think your conclusion is mistaken.
My solution would not inconvenience you at all.

My solution would involve sending these messages to emacs-bug-tracker
instead of to bug-gnu-emacs.  If you want to see these messages,
you could subscribe to emacs-bug-tracker, and you would get the
same messages you are getting now.

This change would give each subscriber on bug-gnu-emacs the option to
either receive the bug-tracker mail or not.  I don't think that can
make anything difficult for anyone, and I do not understand why some
people resist making the change.