From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: [OT] Mail-Followup-To, Outlook (was: mode-line tooltips for "[" and "]" in recursive-edit) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:42:39 -0700 Message-ID: <005d01c88b83$578d8c10$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <200803201508.m2KF8C0S002150@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><006301c88aa9$ffafda40$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><200803201704.m2KH4HVt023198@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><006501c88aaf$9afc6040$c2b22382@us.oracle.com><200803210707.m2L77Pwo005894@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><003301c88b5f$dd14c8e0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206125009 19486 80.91.229.12 (21 Mar 2008 18:43:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:43:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Reiner Steib'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 21 19:43:57 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JcmDb-0001md-5k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:43:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JcmD0-0007vM-NT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:43:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JcmCg-0007YX-Lt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:42:58 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JcmCg-0007Wm-4B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:42:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JcmCf-0007Wa-Iq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:42:57 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JcmCf-0006gk-5J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 14:42:57 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m2LIgqD6013335; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:42:52 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m2L4QtLS026590; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:42:52 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3621816571206124956; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:42:36 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.80.154) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:42:35 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AciLe6XcC5PCy8GCR6iaxNSlR4gXDAAAabtA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93133 Archived-At: > From: Reiner Steib Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 10:46 AM > [ We should probably take this off-list? ] That's not obvious, at this point, since this is about interacting with the mailing list. > >> Your mailer does not respect the Mail-Followup-To header > [...] > > IOW, before jumping to conclusions about causes, what is the symptom > > that is bothering you? > > The Mail-Followup-To header suggest to whom replies should be > directed. Then doing a wide reply to Dan's article (with has > "Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org"), Gnus prompts with the > following explanation: ... > See also and > . The former URL lists the > following programs as using Mail-Followup-To: qmail, Mutt, nmh, > Shuriken, Gnus, and Kmail. Thanks for the information, Reiner. Those might be the cat's meow, but with the exception of Mutt they don't even register on the mail client usage stats I've seen - e.g. https://messaging.its.monash.edu.au/stats/client/. Most of the universe is nonconformist and disrespectful, it seems. ;-) > As it is not a standard and not very widely used, I don't complain > about anyone _not_ respecting it. Dan's MMV. In my mailer (still a common one), the two possibilities I am aware of are Reply and Reply All. The former replies only to the sender; the latter replies to everyone. I've had people on the list complain when I didn't use Reply All. AFAICT, of the two, Reply All seems to lead to fewer complaints, so far. > > Unless someone can characterize the problem more concretely > > and cite an Outlook preference setting that takes care of > > it, I guess you'll have to take up the problem with Devil > > Gates. Tell him that his mail client is misbehaving. > > Wrong. Probably nobody is forced to use this software when > participating on this mailing list. Your "probably" is an unwarranted assumption, depending on how severely one interprets "forced to". I'm using my work computer with a work mailing address and a work mail client. I could choose to buy another computer, get another mailing address, wait until I'm home to answer mail, and so on, so I'm not strictly "forced to" use Outlook for this list. Anyway, it sounds as if most of the mail clients in actual use are misbehaving, if those who behave are limited to qmail, Mutt, nmh, Shuriken, Gnus, and Kmail. Proclaimed etiquette and convention are of little use if they are not, well, actually conventional. > More disturbing about your > Outlook 11 is the "Kammquoting"[1]. Well, > `gnus-article-outlook-deuglify-article' in Gnus can fix often fix > it. [2] > > [1] zig-zag-shaped lines that it's hard to read. See the box on the > RHS of http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammquoting I don't read German, unfortunately. Googling for just Kammquoting didn't help either. But I see what you mean from the box you mention. > or the commentary section of `lisp/gnus/deuglify.el' I looked at deuglify.el too. Kammquoting doesn't seem like a big deal, to me, but I agree that it is not pretty and reduces readability. Anyway, AFAICT, my posts and their wrapped lines are less ugly than a lot of others. I've reduced the wrap column to 60 - perhaps that will help a little. Outlook is no doubt primitive, when it comes to plain-text mail. BTW, the Commentary in deuglify.el speaks of "illegal" unwrapping, which is no doubt inappropriate terminology. > In articles <003201c88b5f$c9623670$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> and > <003301c88b5f$dd14c8e0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> (the article I'm > replying to). > > [2] > ,----[ (info "(gnus)Article Washing") ] > | `W Y f' > | Full deuglify of broken Outlook (Express) articles: Treat > | dumbquotes, unwrap lines, repair attribution and rearrange > | citation. (`gnus-article-outlook-deuglify-article'). > `---- Thanks again for educating me.