From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:09:36 -0800 Message-ID: <005101c873f4$230d0750$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> References: <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org><878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com><200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de><200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> <877ih0o9dx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203551716 23564 80.91.229.12 (20 Feb 2008 23:55:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:55:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, dann@ics.uci.edu, storm@cua.dk, acm@muc.de, 'Miles Bader' To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Sascha Wilde'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 21 00:55:39 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JRymo-0008P5-N1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:55:39 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRymJ-0000mv-KR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:55:07 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuKf-0003dH-Pl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:10:17 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuKe-0003cu-Ox for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:10:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuKe-0003co-Lh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:10:16 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JRuKX-0002qK-17; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:10:09 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m1KJ9lN4027860; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 13:09:47 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with ESMTP id m1KBjd4r008858; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:09:45 -0700 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3583457951203534579; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:09:39 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:09:37 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Achz4cFsgbrNIM0zQyWHa8I82YtqRQADD/aA In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:54:49 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89745 Archived-At: > Whenever I use "emacs -Q" or some similar "vanilla Emacs", the first > thing that I'm urged to do is M-x transient-mark-mode (and it was > already N=B01 back when fotn-lock-mode wasn't the default). >=20 > Of course, I'm sure I'd be able to learn to live without it. It seems > like an option affect people *very* strongly, so those who want it > *really* want it, and those who don't *really* don't. >=20 > So, that's for my personal preference. As to why turn it on *by > default*, here are some reasons why I think it should be ON=20 > by default: > - Visual feedback about the mark's position and active status. > I and all (X)Emacs users I know personally (i.e. off-this-list) and > with whom I've talked about transient-mark-mode use > transient-mark-mode (or its XEmacs equivalent) and find it difficult > to use Emacs without it because of the lack of visual feedback about > where the mark really is. I do not claim that this small group of > people is representative, but it does seem relevant. > - Extended semantics for various commands. > Many commands now offer to operate on the region if the region is > active but only when transient-mark-mode is ON. > This functionality is now also available to non-tmm-users via the > temporary-transient-mark-mode (C-SPC C-SPC), admittedly, but while > C-SPC C-SPC is easy enough to use, I always find myself=20 > selecting the > region *before* knowing that I want to use such a command (or > selecting the region with something else than C-SPC, typically > C-M-SPC), so I end up having to use C-u C-x C-x which I find a lot > more inconvenient. Well, I thought I might successfully stay out of this calorific thread = ;-), but here goes - I agree with what Stefan has said, including the reasons he gave for = turning t-m mode on by default. For the record: I used Emacs for many years with no problem before t-m = mode existed and before there was any mouse support. So I should be able to understand to some extent those who say they are used to doing without = such features.=20 Personally, however, I had no difficulty getting used to t-m mode. I immediately adopted it, and I haven't looked back. Likewise, FWIW, it = didn't take me long to start using the mouse on occasion. I tend to use the = mouse now (clicking, not dragging) for selecting text and sexps in some situations, even though much of the time I do not use it. It is a random-access pointing device, and random access can be an advantage in = some contexts. anti-rodent -flames > /dev/null FWIW, I have never experienced the issues that others have cited wrt t-m mode. I cannot recognize the behavior behind statements such as these: > Transient-mark-mode messes with the normal work flow (and the > active region) in a way that is not helpful. > it makes uses of the mark ring other than marking text > very unpleasant > using the mark to mark interesting spots in an buffer so > that one can easily jump between them.... In such cases the > highlighting of text between point and the last mark is > distracting and useless. I don't discount others experiencing such problems. I'm unexperienced in that way; that's all. Transient-mark mode doesn't interfere with my work flow at all - quite the contrary, but maybe my work doesn't flow in the = same direction as yours. So count me as one person who was quite used to the "old" way but nevertheless changed to the "new" way. That doesn't mean the new trick = is right for other old dogs - YMMV. It just means that there are some = people used to living without t-m mode who can end up appreciating it. My vote (we've been through this before...) is for delete-selection mode = to be on by default. Second choice: transient-mark mode on by default. In either case, `mark-even-if-inactive' should be non-nil by default. Just = one vote. Wrt emacs -nw: I can't speak to this, because I no longer use Emacs = without a window manager, but from Alan's report, perhaps the default should be different for emacs -nw. He seemed to be reporting horrible dark blue flashes or something. Maybe others can comment on whether the default = should differ in this case.