From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: CUA-mode features and documenation Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:05:30 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01c8718f$afa8dac0$2d58908d@us.oracle.com> References: <000d01c86c82$700dccc0$7051908d@us.oracle.com><200802121430.m1CEUc6k013361@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><002601c86d8a$a0454db0$405a908d@us.oracle.com> <87tzkdnkee.fsf@kfs-lx.rd.rdm><87ir0sonaa.fsf_-_@kfs-lx.rd.rdm><200802131623.m1DGNrls003614@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu><87odakwl2r.fsf@jurta.org> <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com><878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com><47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203271626 32663 80.91.229.12 (17 Feb 2008 18:07:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:07:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, storm@cua.dk, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, miles@gnu.org To: , "'Dan Nicolaescu'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 17 19:07:29 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JQnvB-00058R-7h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:07:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JQnug-0000pc-MB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:54 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JQnuc-0000nz-Ku for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:50 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JQnuc-0000n8-2W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:50 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JQnub-0000n5-TI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:49 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JQnuU-0008HM-A9; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:42 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (rgmgw2.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.111]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m1HI5gCv004534; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:05:42 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt350.oracle.com (acsmt350.oracle.com [141.146.40.150]) by rgmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with ESMTP id m1HI5e9P028165; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 11:05:41 -0700 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3578721581203271518; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:05:18 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.88.45) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:05:18 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AchxaCTrPCEdwWmKSKaO1wm5Yh9KSwAH9ORw X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89371 Archived-At: > What cua-selection-mode provides is the: > - transient-mark-mode > - delete-selection-mode Delete selection mode already provides (uses) transient mark mode. So CUA selection mode apparently adds only this: > - S-ARROW_KEY extends the region And maybe this (?): > (Probably some more, but this is the main functionality). > This might be a superior for Delete Selection mode. What do you mean by "a superior [?] for D S mode"? Do you mean that it would be good to add those S- bindings to D S mode or to replace D S mode by CUA selection mode? If so, I disagree. I use D S mode, and I don't want the S- bindings. Anyway, in D S mode, you can already use S-s the same way, but only when the region is active. I think Kim should have said that in CUA selection mode S- *activates the region* and extends it, whereas in delete selection mode it extends the active region. IOW, AFAICT, CUA selection mode just lets you skip hitting C-SPC before using S-. I prefer the D S behavior, myself: S- extends the active region, but doesn't also set mark. (You can then use S- for something else when the region is not active.) I think we need to keep giving users a choice about this (having S- set mark if the region is inactive). That could be done by keeping both D S mode and CUA selection mode, or (simpler?) by adding a user option and keeping only one of them. I don't know about the "probably some more" stuff - perhaps we should look into that. If there is in fact no more, then just adding an option to D S mode for S- to set mark (if inactive) would be sufficient. We could then drop CUA selection mode. Question (not proposal): Assuming we keep CUA selection mode, would it be clearer to change its name, to avoid confusion with CUA mode? I imagine that CUA selection mode is a perfectly accurate name, in that it presumably implements the selection part of IBM's Common User Access (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access). Even so, (1) the name might lead to some confusion with CUA mode, and (2) it's not obvious to most people what "CUA" is. That ignorance is probably OK for CUA mode, since you need to read the doc anyway to find out what it's all about (lots of features), and "Common User Access" refers to more than just selection. But for CUA selection mode, we might look for a better name. Note that "delete selection" mode is also not the ideal name for what it does. It is really a "replace selection" mode. You can type to replace the active region, and deletion is just replacement by nothing. But then, even "replace selection" doesn't convey the ability to extend the active region using S-. Looking at various Emacs Wiki entries, I suspect there is a fair amount of confusion for newbies among (1) transient mark mode, (2) delete selection mode, (3) PC selection mode, and (4) CUA selection mode. But I guess that's the nature of the beast - Emacs provides a world of optional behaviors, even out of the box. Vive la difference ! > If we want to promote it that way, we should choose a better > name that CUA Selection mode, because most people won't know > what "CUA" means. Ah, what I asked. > But I don't think it should be the default, any more than > Delete Selection mode should be. (I have no strong opinion about the default, but I think either CUA selection mode or delete selection mode behavior would be a good default behavior for newbies.) To move forward, perhaps someone can speak to the "probably some more", and we can then discuss how we might combine CUA selection mode and delete selection mode (with options, so we don't lose existing behavior).