From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: unlispification considered harmful - turn off custom-unlispify-tag-names by default Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:24:58 -0800 Message-ID: <002801c954dd$9320dd80$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1228263917 25482 80.91.229.12 (3 Dec 2008 00:25:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:25:17 +0000 (UTC) To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 03 01:26:20 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1L7fZK-0004L6-9z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 01:26:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60684 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L7fY9-0005oL-So for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:25:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L7fY5-0005nj-2Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:25:01 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1L7fY2-0005nP-LB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:24:59 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=42110 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1L7fY2-0005nM-FG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:24:58 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet12.oracle.com ([148.87.113.124]:40865 helo=rgminet12.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L7fY2-0003UB-3t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:24:58 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet13.oracle.com (acsinet13.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by rgminet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mB30OhlY012465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:24:45 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt707.oracle.com (acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85]) by acsinet13.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mB30PDXD030075 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:25:14 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.65.247) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:24:52 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AclU3ZKuSAL+5LgKR1a10goZwKEMYQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Source-IP: acsmt707.oracle.com [141.146.40.85] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090202.4935D1D5.01AB:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:106462 Archived-At: I don't think unlispification is a good thing for users. The default value of `custom-unlispify-tag-names' should be nil. Do you really think that this: Read Buffer Completion Ignore Case: Show Value is more readable, even to a non-Lispian, than this? read-buffer-completion-ignore-case: Show Value I don't think so. The second makes it clear that this is a variable name (or a face name). The first is just baroque obfuscation, IMO. (The name could be `custom-obfuscate-tag-names'.) Emacs users are used to seeing variable names, function names, and so on - think of `apropos' output. We don't use "unlispified" names there, and we shouldn't use them here either. This almost insults users, IMO - it doesn't help them. They should be able to expect the same names everywhere. Users use `M-x customize-option', not just the menubar menu, to get to Customize buffers in the first place. And that command requires you to input an option name in "lispified" format. Once you're in, obfuscation takes over. If you can handle using the Lisp name to get in, then you can handle seeing it on the inside too. If `custom-unlispify-tag-names' is nil, then you can use, in Customize, `C-h v', `find-variable', and other commands that pick up the variable name as a default. Not so if it is t. (Yes, doc strings sometimes give more info than the text shown in Customize - `read-buffer-completion-ignore-case' is a case in point.) Less obviously, the same argument can be made for `custom-unlispify-menu-entries'. The two should go together, so that you see the same representation everywhere. These options should really just be removed, IMO, but a first step would be to give them a value of nil.