From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:23:51 -0700 Message-ID: <002301c88df5$5b61d020$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <001f01c88dee$b7d48430$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206397387 3138 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 22:23:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:23:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Alan Mackenzie' , 'Chong Yidong' , 'Stefan Monnier' , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'paul r'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 23:23:37 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jdv4n-0002Ev-GW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:23:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdv4C-00069N-E0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:22:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdv41-00064N-Sn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:22:45 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdv3z-00062K-FI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:22:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jdv3z-000627-6W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:22:43 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jdv3y-0000tO-JK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:22:42 -0400 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m2OLPA2I014135; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:25:11 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with ESMTP id m2OEo0ml031566; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:25:08 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3623802901206393830; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:23:50 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:23:50 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AciN8b+HxRNWW5/aTNqXVtUEKmaoQQAAm/hw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93341 Archived-At: > > > Emacs is fully customizable, but only advanced users *really can* > > > customize. > > > > If that is true, then we need to improve the customization > > process. It is OK for some customizing to be only for > > advanced users, but it is not good for all > > customizing to be only for advanced users. > > > > Can you point out some specific customization problems for > > a beginner (in a new > > thread?) The first step to fixing them is to identify them. > > Most average developpers I know will simply never tweak any of the > piece of software they use. You are all very smart here, so I'm sure > you are not concerned at all, but really I think a lot of people are. > Some developpers I know will start to tweak their tools after many > monthes of happy usage with default settings. > Almost none of them will start to tweak it *before* really using it. > > I think emacs customization process is already fairly good. But many > beginners will simply give up *before* even discovering M-x customize > ... sad, but true at least for people I know. In that case, what you meant was not that "only advanced users *really can* customize" but that "only advanced users *will try to* customize". That is a big difference. And I doubt that it is true. Emacs is an "extensible" editor, and sooner or later users discover this and take advantage of it. Some new users might take longer to discover that, but I doubt that *only advanced* users customize at all. But yes, if a newbie Emacs user is in the habit of *never* changing app preferences, then s?he might need to discover that Emacs is especially customizable, and that s?he really might want to customize it in some ways.