From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: File > Close and File > Save Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:57:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c88d73$e1a82df0$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <003b01c88d37$2963c060$0600a8c0@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206338261 20684 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 05:57:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 05:57:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 06:58:11 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jdfh8-0006QH-JN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 06:58:07 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdfgX-0007iZ-0x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:57:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdfgS-0007h0-2k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:57:24 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdfgP-0007gl-91 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:57:23 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdfgP-0007gi-6m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:57:21 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdfgK-0000D0-Po; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 01:57:17 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw1.us.oracle.com (agmgw1.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.212]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id m2O5v61F013652; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 00:57:06 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id m2O57Hnp027168; Sun, 23 Mar 2008 23:57:06 -0600 Original-Received: from inet-141-146-46-1.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3623282921206338203; Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:56:43 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/141.144.89.183) by bhmail.oracle.com (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 23 Mar 2008 22:56:43 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: AciNZjqilYzFqOjWSC2SFvPDshmWOAABwALA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93289 Archived-At: > > 1. The File > Close menu item is unclear. In fact, this is > > essentially kill-buffer, but you would never guess that. > > I think the tooltip for this menu item hints on that. Tooltips are fine, but their existence is not a reason not to get the menu items right. Tooltips are extra information; they are not a substitute for good menu names. > > And there is no key binding shown. > > Menus are one way to learn what commands are available and > > what keys they are > > bound to. This item should teach C-x k. > > Emacs does this automatically, but the problem here is that the > File->Close menu item does not run kill-buffer, the command usually > bound to C-x k. It runs a different command. Yes, I know that. That's no excuse. Emacs has :key for this purpose. The point is to let the menu teach the key bindings. It makes sense to hint that you can kill the buffer with `C-x k'. > > The menu item should be renamed and C-x k should be put > > next to the item. What > > name should be used? Well, how about `Kill Buffer'? > > File->Close is a standard menu item in most, if not all, applications > that visit files. For that reason, I object to renaming this menu > item in Emacs. Emacs doesn't just visit files. Close doesn't only mean toss a file. No connection between killing a buffer and Close is made anywhere in the doc or doc strings. File > Close is an orphan adrift on a raft. The tooltip is its only lifeline, and `C-h k' is its only anchor. > > 2. In a related vein, we have item `Revert Buffer', but > > just `Save' and `Save As'. Every other item on the File menu > > has a verb and object. How about `Save > > Buffer' and `Save Buffer As', for consistency and clarity? > > I'd prefer to remove "buffer" from "Revert buffer", if we are obsessed > with consistency. Again, because "Save" and "Save As" are standard > items on the File menu in GUI applications that visit files. Files are not the only things you can save in Emacs. We have Save Options, Save Bookmarks [As], Save Dictionary,... It's about clarity, not obsessive or even consistent consistency. Revert Buffer is clearer than Revert. Save Buffer is clearer than Save. Exit Emacs is clearer than Exit. Kill Buffer (or even Close Buffer) is clearer than Close. But I won't belabor it. If resistence is at a point where not adding a key-binding hint for something as important as killing a buffer is defended in terms of that not happening automatically because `kill-this-buffer' is not exactly `kill-buffer' ("not my fault"), then we are in the realm of mauvaise foi and there is no hope of prying eyes open. The point of the mail and the cited essay was to encourage a second look at the menu. But the ground hog sees its shadow and returns to its burrow for another few years... A long winter indeed.