Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Reiner Steib]

On Fri, Nov 16 2007, Richard Stallman wrote:

> Can someone please DTRT, then ack?

This is a display problem on Windows.  It's not specific to Gnus.
I.e. in the following file (or the attachment example_Umlaut.txt in
the original report) the display problem occurs as well:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
First line in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh1.png>:

  Zuletzt geöffnete Dateien

First non-quoted line in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh2.png>:

  wä wö mä mö

--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

The output of `describe-char' from the original message might allow
developers (on Windows) to reproduce the problem. 

> ------- Start of forwarded message -------
> X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=UNPARSEABLE_RELAY 
> 	autolearn=failed version=3.1.0
> To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> From: Joachim Reiter <Reiter.Joachim@web.de>
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:41:50 +0100
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-="
> Subject: Failure to show "German Umlaute"

Richard, including the Message-ID header in the forwarded message
would make it easier to find the original message.  (X-Spam-Status
isn't useful, IMHO.)

> - --=-=-=
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Please write in English if possible, because the Emacs maintainers
> usually do not have translators to read other languages for them.
>
> Your bug report will be posted to the bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org mailing list,
> and to the gnu.emacs.bug news group.
>
> Please describe exactly what actions triggered the bug
> and the precise symptoms of the bug:
>
> 1. Starting Emacs
> 2. 'M-x Gnus' to start Gnus
> 3. I.E. I would to read de.comp.editoren I press <SPACE>, if the Cursor
> is in Group-Summary over this Group
> 4. At first, I see the failure in Subject, so it has 'German Umlaut',
> later in Article-Summary too
>
> The failure only is shown, so a 'German Umlaut' is together used with
> 'm=F6' also 'w=F6', for this Example by the 'm' also the 'w' the right edge
> of the Letters (m + w) shown 'cutted' - If I click one of the Letters
> with Mouse, so the Cursor is on it, the look is OK, if I click another
> one, the failure will return.
>
> So it looks like, the 'German Umlaut' over-paint the 'm' or the 'w' by
> edge.
>
> I attached a Test-Case and the result of 'M-x describe-char RET' by
> using the 'm' with '=F6', 'm' with 'o', 'w' with '=F6', 'w' with 'o' the '=
> =F6'
> and the 'o'.
> Also I send a Text-file with a small Text including the Letters making
> the failure also them without failure.
>
> For looking, how its shown by me, look at followed Links so you can see
> this too...
>
> www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh1.png
> www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh2.png
>
> If Emacs crashed, and you have the Emacs process in the gdb debugger,
> please include the output from the following gdb commands:
>     `bt full' and `xbacktrace'.
> If you would like to further debug the crash, please read the file
> g:/Emacs-22.1/etc/DEBUG for instructions.
>
> In GNU Emacs 22.1.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
>  of 2007-06-02 on RELEASE
> Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
> configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4) --cflags -Ic:/gnuwin32/include'
>
> Important settings:
>   value of $LC_ALL: nil
>   value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
>   value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
>   value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
>   value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
>   value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
>   value of $LC_TIME: nil
>   value of $LANG: DEU
>   locale-coding-system: cp1252
>   default-enable-multibyte-characters: t
>
> Major mode: Group
>
> Minor modes in effect:
>   gnus-topic-mode: t
>   gnus-undo-mode: t
>   recentf-mode: t
>   encoded-kbd-mode: t
>   tooltip-mode: t
>   tool-bar-mode: t
>   mouse-wheel-mode: t
>   menu-bar-mode: t
>   file-name-shadow-mode: t
>   global-font-lock-mode: t
>   font-lock-mode: t
>   blink-cursor-mode: t
>   unify-8859-on-encoding-mode: t
>   utf-translate-cjk-mode: t
>   auto-compression-mode: t
>   line-number-mode: t
>   transient-mark-mode: t
>
> Recent input:
> <help-echo> M-x g n u s <return> <help-echo> <help-echo>=20
> y M-x r e p o r t - e m <tab> <return>
>
> Recent messages:
> Loading gnus-cache...done
> Loading gnus-sum...done
> Loading timezone...done
> No new newsgroups
> Checking new news...
> Opening nndoc server on gnus-help...done
> Opening nnml server...done
> Checking new news...done
> Loading gnus-topic...done
> Loading emacsbug...done
>
> With friendly Greetings and TIA
> Joachim Reiter
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=Test-Case.txt
>
> ("G:\\Emacs-22.1\\bin\\emacs.exe" "-Q")
> Loading encoded-kb...done
> For information about the GNU Project and its goals, type C-h C-p.
> Loading gnus...done
> Loading gnus-start...
> Loading easymenu...done
> Loading gnus-start...done
> Loading gnus-agent...
> Loading regexp-opt...done
> Loading gnus-agent...done
>
> nntp (news) open error: ''.  Continue? (y or n) 
> Reading g:/Emacs-Home/.newsrc.eld...
> Opening nntp server on news...
> Denied server
> Opening nntp server on news...failed
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=example_Umlaut.txt
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Wom=F6glich unm=F6glich, gew=F6hnlich m=F6glich.
> M=F6gen ist Morgen womit m=F6glichst nicht Heute m=F6glich ist.
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=a.txt
>
>   character: a (97, #o141, #x61, U+0061)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x61
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x61
>   file code: #x61 (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x61)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=ae.txt
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>   character: =E4 (2276, #o4344, #x8e4, U+00E4)
>     charset: latin-iso8859-1 (Right-Hand Part of Latin Alphabet 1 (ISO/IEC =
> 8859-1): ISO-IR-100.)
>  code point: #x64
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: l:Latin
> buffer code: #x81 #xE4
>   file code: #xE4 (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 =
> (#xE4)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=o.txt
>
>   character: o (111, #o157, #x6f, U+006F)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x6F
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x6F
>   file code: #x6F (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x6F)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=oe.txt
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>   character: =F6 (2294, #o4366, #x8f6, U+00F6)
>     charset: latin-iso8859-1 (Right-Hand Part of Latin Alphabet 1 (ISO/IEC =
> 8859-1): ISO-IR-100.)
>  code point: #x76
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: l:Latin
> buffer code: #x81 #xF6
>   file code: #xF6 (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 =
> (#xF6)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=m.txt
>
>   character: m (109, #o155, #x6d, U+006D)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x6D
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x6D
>   file code: #x6D (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x6D)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=m_without_Umlaut.txt
>
>   character: m (109, #o155, #x6d, U+006D)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x6D
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x6D
>   file code: #x6D (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x6D)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=w.txt
>
>   character: w (119, #o167, #x77, U+0077)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x77
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x77
>   file code: #x77 (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x77)
>
> - --=-=-=
> Content-Disposition: inline; filename=w_whitout_Umlaut.txt
>
>   character: w (119, #o167, #x77, U+0077)
>     charset: ascii (ASCII (ISO646 IRV))
>  code point: #x77
>      syntax: w 	which means: word
>    category: a:ASCII graphic characters 32-126 (ISO646 IRV:1983[4/0]) l:Latin
> buffer code: #x77
>   file code: #x77 (encoded by coding system windows-1252-unix)
>     display: by this font (glyph code)
>      -outline-Courier New-normal-r-normal-normal-13-97-96-96-c-*-iso8859-1 (#x77)
>
> - --=-=-=--
> ------- End of forwarded message -------

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Jason Rumney]

Reiner Steib wrote:
> This is a display problem on Windows.  It's not specific to Gnus.
> I.e. in the following file (or the attachment example_Umlaut.txt in
> the original report) the display problem occurs as well:
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> First line in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh1.png>:
>
>   Zuletzt geöffnete Dateien
>
> First non-quoted line in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh2.png>:
>
>   wä wö mä mö
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>   

It's not clear to me what the bug is. The umlauts are clearly visible in
both screenshots. Is the user complaining about the fact that some
characters get clipped when Cleartype is enabled due to Windows
supplying incorrect metrics for the font? If so, this is documented in
etc/PROBLEMS.

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Reiner Steib]

On Sat, Nov 17 2007, Jason Rumney wrote:

> It's not clear to me what the bug is. The umlauts are clearly visible in
> both screenshots. Is the user complaining about the fact that some
> characters get clipped 

Yes.  E.g. in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh2.png> the
text says:

,----
|   wä wö mä mö
| 
| In the letters "w" and "m", the right column of pixels is not
| displayed.
| 
|   wa wo ma mo
`----

If the iso-characters "ä" and "ö" are replaced by their ASCII
"counterparts" ("a" and "o") the letters "w" and "m" are displayed
correctly.

> when Cleartype is enabled due to Windows supplying incorrect metrics
> for the font? If so, this is documented in etc/PROBLEMS.

Joachim, does turning of "ClearType" solve the problem?

,----[ etc/PROBLEMS: Known problems with the MS-Windows port of Emacs 22.1 ]
| When "ClearType" method is selected as the "method to smooth edges of
| screen fonts" (in Display Properties, Appearance tab, under
| "Effects"), there are various problems related to display of
| characters: 2-pixel trace is left behind when moving overlays, bold
| fonts can be hard to read, small portions of some characters could
| appear chopped, etc.  This happens because, under ClearType,
| characters are drawn outside their advertised bounding box.  Emacs 21
| disabled the use of ClearType, whereas Emacs 22 allows it and has some
| code to enlarge the width of the bounding box.  Apparently, this
| display feature needs more changes to get it 100% right.  A workaround
| is to disable ClearType.
`----

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Jason Rumney]

Reiner Steib wrote:
> Yes.  E.g. in <http://www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/screensh2.png> the
> text says:
>
> ,----
> |   wä wö mä mö
> | 
> | In the letters "w" and "m", the right column of pixels is not
> | displayed.
> | 
> |   wa wo ma mo
> `----
>
> If the iso-characters "ä" and "ö" are replaced by their ASCII
> "counterparts" ("a" and "o") the letters "w" and "m" are displayed
> correctly.
>   

The simple explanation for that is that Emacs displays runs of
characters from the same character set using one system call. But since
Emacs considers latin-1 and ascii as different character sets, in the
former case, each character is displayed individually, so clipping
occurs per character rather than on the whole string. In the latter
case, you will see the same problem if you move the cursor through the
text, as that will cause the character under the cursor to be drawn
individually.

Courier New is particularly bad for exhibiting this problem.
Unfortunately it is also one of the few fixed width fonts we can rely on
being installed on all Windows installations, so it is the default.

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 16:50:25 +0000
> From: Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org>
> Cc: 
> 
> Courier New is particularly bad for exhibiting this problem.
> Unfortunately it is also one of the few fixed width fonts we can rely on
> being installed on all Windows installations, so it is the default.

Perhaps we could advertise the other, better, fixed-width fonts, so
that people who do have them would switch to using them.  Can you tell
what fonts are better than Courier New?

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Joachim Reiter]

Hello,

at 17.11.2007 17:24 Reiner Steib wrote:

...

> Joachim, does turning of "ClearType" solve the problem?

> ,----[ etc/PROBLEMS: Known problems with the MS-Windows port of Emacs 22.1 ]
> | When "ClearType" method is selected as the "method to smooth edges of
> | screen fonts" (in Display Properties, Appearance tab, under
> | "Effects"), there are various problems related to display of
> | characters: 2-pixel trace is left behind when moving overlays, bold
> | fonts can be hard to read, small portions of some characters could
> | appear chopped, etc.  This happens because, under ClearType,
> | characters are drawn outside their advertised bounding box.  Emacs 21
> | disabled the use of ClearType, whereas Emacs 22 allows it and has some
> | code to enlarge the width of the bounding box.  Apparently, this
> | display feature needs more changes to get it 100% right.  A workaround
> | is to disable ClearType.
> `----

Of course, this solved the problem now!

Sorry, that I have not read the known problems where the failure is
solved/named.

At first, I use this configuration (disabled ClearType) in future so I
havent tnis problem I have before. But this Look is very 'ugly' you can see
at

www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/Screensh3.png

'Ugly' means in a total-appearance.

Again sorry for my bad english :-/

With friendly Greetings
Joachim Reiter

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Joachim Reiter]

Hello,

at 17.11.2007 17:24 Reiner Steib wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 17 2007, Jason Rumney wrote:

>> It's not clear to me what the bug is. The umlauts are clearly visible in

...

> Joachim, does turning of "ClearType" solve the problem?

...

In my e-Mail I wrote to you I call, the problem is solved, so I will
disable the 'ClearType'.

Now, there a new problem is occured, you can see at

www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/Screensh4.png

If I write in a column a ',' and under it in next column there is a 'h',
the higher pixels from the 'h' are cutted!

I think, the problem is the font 'Courier New', no matter, I use
'ClearType' or not!

Eli Zaretskii wrotes to Jason Rumney, perhaps it will better to use a
fixed-width font its better as 'Courier New'! I think this too and will
do so.


With friendly Greetings
Joachim Reiter

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Sven Joachim]

On 2007-11-18 20:39 +0100, Joachim Reiter wrote:

> In my e-Mail I wrote to you I call, the problem is solved, so I will
> disable the 'ClearType'.
>
> Now, there a new problem is occured, you can see at
>
> www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/Screensh4.png
>
> If I write in a column a ',' and under it in next column there is a 'h',
> the higher pixels from the 'h' are cutted!

Are you sure that you did not accidentally type an 'n' instead of an
'h'?  From your following mail
(<mailman.3756.1195415552.18990.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>) I would assume
that "tnis" was the problem.

Kind regards,
Sven

Re: [Reiter.Joachim@web.de: Failure to show "German Umlaute"]

[Joachim Reiter]

Hello,

at 18.11.2007 20:39 Joachim Reiter wrote:

> Hello,

> at 17.11.2007 17:24 Reiner Steib wrote:

>> On Sat, Nov 17 2007, Jason Rumney wrote:

>>> It's not clear to me what the bug is. The umlauts are clearly visible in

> ...

>> Joachim, does turning of "ClearType" solve the problem?

> ...

> In my e-Mail I wrote to you I call, the problem is solved, so I will
> disable the 'ClearType'.

> Now, there a new problem is occured, you can see at

> www.hobbyecke-pc.de/images/Screensh4.png

> If I write in a column a ',' and under it in next column there is a 'h',
> the higher pixels from the 'h' are cutted!

> I think, the problem is the font 'Courier New', no matter, I use
> 'ClearType' or not!

> Eli Zaretskii wrotes to Jason Rumney, perhaps it will better to use a
> fixed-width font its better as 'Courier New'! I think this too and will
> do so.

I'm really sorry - After this, Sven Joachim is asking me, if the 'h', I
told, maybe is an 'n', I proofed this by using 'M-x describe-char'
and...

The Failure is not by fonts or Gnus or Display-Configuration, the
failure was sitting in front of my PC - The letter I told exactly was an
'n', so there are no more failures. I hope, you forgive me my helpness
as an Newbie.

With friendly Greetings
Joachim Reiter