From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:29:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30638"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa , "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" , "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 14 18:30:10 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpEH-0007nR-O3 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:30:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpE6-0007QK-Oe; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpE5-0007Pq-Bc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:57 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpE5-0007ob-2V for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpEA-00089y-OL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:30:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Christopher Dimech Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470899531323 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:30:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:29:55 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40973 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpE2-000899-SI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.19]:57241) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgpDz-00088q-J6 for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:29:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.com; s=s31663417; t=1694708973; x=1695313773; i=dimech@gmx.com; bh=t3ch/jGmAREeykR5fP7HnVoyrZH/XpsFuGQx6xHri6Q=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=A/yIcPeSuo+4ss8slDsIhPGTMuEi3vgpi0rDvYwVKtvy9rd5ccs6wDQGTCQzXuymoCBybK8hC/K 6gPNnByzvDkX/vMMLkIj3WnmXKi5snud+tK+HUFk0UKciekso6S+ZasCYWzE8eQV40lrfnY66QtYU KjpafsQtJvtv8+y1OdY1qQUZq+X8yh7qG8MLj/zBbaCJG2ikYaEEFxOwQ5MiVJj1H5jSZjvhciA13 WT9JmoKdKEpOaA/y2g2VLiprQDXYWqy5bkAwci0Amubtdq1EepDTr/KDB3GXBS/mQQAehvFbeL/Eq dudbHrRCnKOmmDO0F0DPLKXdnCl4PkFzEGHg== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Original-Received: from [141.8.81.247] ([141.8.81.247]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs10.server.lan [172.19.170.178]) (via HTTP); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:29:33 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:IU23Ft9I5/urtkEPQDRIRdFE46V/fs8WtP4NmVVARqz9ee1YYYn6dXlPY6Bd8OApUMGkM pXPkEssFAcGp2gfPP5ckJQgCgSShG3EA+phuAlPuD0l/D6drcFd4SiXJegyXedV5C3TTgh37YPXi i4/OM//gqrkAYG0j6jv4Wnm4KeIk7WkB2nVM7iBDXybjzAWo2290HeCIFoJ/T9CtafZzFTEVWp4s ZhOIJcY5u3Z0fn8o4pRyhdE6T8jqCavBkaRv3K0L052UiG2WIGrI0iuMIAv5E9LOEhUtBJBVJPFw bU= UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:/jjKQ0GjdAU=;i9cxXDGxTzERRJZmCRIUQIu6g1E dnLKXr/4+ascUpQ4WpPTAi4dmVjYvT0C8EVQKPYouw2BuJ2alRR8lBz8ie4DNowqD7aZUMvyC 5Hp5y7IUyEnUnszLof0Su7lSc/vGjDroPAoxMLPeXCnt7adRVser/P7DS3iBE4kTFqdwx0TiL qrKS3qsY+NsQk60RwYgYa8j7sH64/ocpOMWOymWBYInw34miZpY3qT09ZRWDcKHGAi9HTevt3 4O1LdmOR8eedsWm6e4Prt1C6DQU2iF9kLp5YywZ2G+3SCp4WVkKKc3zvCHyxwBWfynF19Ml9+ 0z+MrOU7VBvrYiBuCGYsSf6LiWOpeP3nMWL1CI93KKH/QM3TBU024d6+iWDVMacEICT1S0zBx 8GuDfdrMSn4unNDQSW43HGqSg7uWucA070yf0/fBot59kdZkchLF9+8a+5yvYRaVH34TgHeB/ NgS4EQmYWMTuuKwiZtydFkhws0etxgaPc7ftmfYKOtFRTs8LM3IMNqCO7NzO99c7jFp84LNOQ Kr1g6FMQYET2SYLpzK3mDCQtgCjKsDM38L/0LphRn9NA5/hy/19qIQmHCPkXtX2A6mzvYXrsO 131Kpx5MbLBi7LjfIhoUUSXTnMOlckxPbGUCGxfo7SYxB0oJSqZzq8cBg9u46cJfu9xZqhSbO sEzYBvdXvIXbcYfF7hf88llB5EbtBazxJAv9YiR1s60Q8irHh7etFTeXWBbC1mFJZdp74f3Er eLyynPwaRuSUp3K+03exJbRt1zB/yy9rXoniznjqUsBhjzvqbIpbzRuAr9WzNvXYpcl13Qj+ X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:270448 Archived-At: > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 at 4:03 AM > From: "Drew Adams" > To: "Eli Zaretskii" , "uzibalqa" > Cc: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, "heimeborgia@proton= mail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" > Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to= be set to 't' > > > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. > > Amen. > > This is a common request from users, who sometimes > expect a complete answer to their question - aimed > at their particular immediate context/problem - or > a complete understanding of something, to be right > in front of them, at the first page or help msg > they encounter. And they want it to be aimed at > their particular level of background understanding. > > It's an individualistic, "Gimme, gimme, gimme, me!" > approach, naively ignoring the fact that whatever > help they hope to find will likely aim to also help > others, with different backgrounds, questions, > contexts, problems. Functioning autonomously in the whole point actually. I support the capability of being able to access to whatever might be needed in an automated way for every function. A function should have a list of associations that are relevant to that function and have the capability of giving you that information. > I'm guessing this can also come partly from a > frustration from _searching_ as the main - or even > the only - navigation users employ. Search can be > very good, or very bad. Some experience/knowledge > are needed to search effectively, as well as good > search tools. > Emacs has good search tools. The first thing users > should learn is how to Ask Emacs. The help commands > of course, and later even how to ask using Lisp etc. > A just-what-I-need-right-here-right-now expectation > is a problem for help/documentation in general, but > especially so nowadays, when it's no longer the case > (if it ever was) that readers start at the start of > a book and read sequentially. At least it should tell you what you wight need no know to fully take advantage of the capabilities of that function. > Now, more than ever, "Every Page Is Page One". > > https://everypageispageone.com/ > > Readers arrive at a URL by googling or following a > link from somewhere. Off the web, inside Emacs, > they arrive at an Info node or a *Help* description > directly. > > The solution to the "problem" is for every "page" > to provide relevant links to other pages/topics. > Every one. That way, wherever you start you can > pretty much follow the paths you want, to get the > info you need. Or a separate tool. > It's not a simple problem with a trivial solution. > Deciding what goes into a given "page"/topic, and > which other topics to link to, is a judgment call > - or more correctly lots of judgment calls. And > that means that even with the "best" design, for > some set of targeted readers/users, some will be > frustrated. (Even deciding what the targeted set > of readers should be is non-trivial and involves > compromises.) In many situation, compromises meant that valuable information is missing and never included. Instead of deciding the targeted set of readers, tools should be as broad as they can ever be. Because one might not know presumptively what they might need. Particularly when some function inple= ments some convenient shortcuts. > A good model of a generally helpful doc system is > Wikipedia. > > Emacs help and doc are pretty darn good. This is > largely because Emacs maintainers - first RMS and > now Eli, in particular - have long been hugely > interested in the help/doc - self-documenting - > feature/aspect of Emacs. Emacs didn't exactly > invent self-documenting, perhaps, but it nearly > did so. > > > Consulting the documentation is one of the > > first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. > > Agreed. There's no excuse for not dipping into > the manuals. Or for not taking advantage of > other sources: tutorials, videos Q&A venues, etc. > Different users learn differently, of course. The excuse is that one can look at whatever you are saying, only to find out that it was all a waste of time. For instance, would one go through the Xah Talk Shows or go through the EmacsConf or Libre Planet talks unless you are sure it will be useful ? I don't think so ! > That said, more links from *Help* to manuals > could help, I think.