From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Dimech Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances. Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:31:15 +0200 Message-ID: References: <83wnqv2e7g.fsf@gnu.org> <83v96d26x5.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1h123wd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21987"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Protesilaos Stavrou , Richard Stallman , Stefan Monnier , 49050@debbugs.gnu.org, Jose Marchesi To: Jeff B Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 17 21:32:17 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxkO-0005Tt-OO for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:32:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52124 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxkM-0007PH-My for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:31:15 +0200 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4nQkkO9GSYqJa3f0L26dbsf2h1hawMY9dZl2+BaySRUhRkVtftKX6sotf5A5gPuZ07Ecz +7D37DbcDQxkzb0q6BNmq0Kq6u34id7GWLe74KH2tSXmOhfo77vZuIxSflrL8VzCAe2jolKb6aE/ CvBj6x77cJ2lillBYessL5Ls1rFTloZvkC2+ziF/4LhO/LUE5nqtPII6GV5oD2hkzVcczgmFsywZ hdLdR66IfScrXTEWj/NaRqrLj4A7G6Scneukn31xtC4kWKMl0D3PE8ZV2/58PBrjvw4cyoQIOMAX 4I= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:oVVEHcMOmpE=:tbgo2nHjR4u21bTK+2tToB FR8fdroo6TzS4ngymNoHJset6m/5PEY7Q5uh1xa+mstK8xZNEyXPAM4/7FuRMLpN46w+TM50W m/Khaqc8XknW6u+ZLK/rMmETRc41NuN8yd3V+M9wK3KbAD4ounDpmGxDvOOW3cRAOOrvc6sg2 YaQvJtz53SlL7yStzw06dMWjw25MjMJuFdreEQTJgUCLDNFDQORKUPT9Imkelh1B1R+mOqkk6 nU4FBHCAGrSomBkcBQeXthoC8HpgCxGBmctEFNc4w33SvZjFZhiFBqfBkEZXa7SnMQ688WNMx gKnKTXgpHcijG5SWd5H3iBhzQ19vsgspzmOxj4LIoorDe4cchc1Zp8LaM7wZuWk+8524TZTUG cgCfL4rDPXJcNEzyOlh7N6Pkdqs1pJHPyFw3NuTUBFE5ygOb4QJL4jb64MKpHfDSTiuOdBVaz mMWjg3bnzE6wkURfH8yfiq6UoNMvAS+md+rk0NtflD7w6bV1/5EoxZrB18i6+0GzPhnDMnxSn ul3KFgd+Lwewhu9LQrPLg2HMCCGG6wPgfxr67D/1CVudCBHC7i0T+gt8b2KPQRDIPQ4g+389i kbaCMnKgkWkt7zmwk5jWDn8UpqDwKe1Hjo2zCwGnj3wu/Ugi3Da7K8bwOMBHPPpyYRXkoq159 aSc/A/NrGu5MKbVIsSS++ZwibiXujJTd3aTtEsKZiwfEZw0d3D0wRKHz7CgvyPHJyowD9qLhN oyE9BwsCQHhpZ3naXbx6erEP9cwSylMDxwgtVYHD/h945j4/qYDUsVn6MON6GeBNnj0zS/R6 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:208673 Archived-At: > Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 at 6:48 AM > From: "Jeff B" > To: "Christopher Dimech" , "Eli Zaretskii" > Cc: 49050@debbugs=2Egnu=2Eorg > Subject: Re: bug#49050: 26=2E1; The INSANITY of setting a default font s= ize in EMACS and saving it for future instances=2E > >=20 > My response is down below at the end=2E >=20 > >>>> Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more > >>>> than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously=2E > >> Why me? I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion > >> needs neither my consent nor my help=2E > > On 6/17/21 10:13 AM, Christopher Dimech wrote: > > > > So me starting a discussion does not require your consent nor your hel= p=2E > > I shall take you up on that and start discussing=2E > > > > The suggestion was mainly driven by the previous comment that my reque= sts are not > > considered seriously=2E This is not always a healthy solution to inac= tivity=2E > > > >> The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by > >> default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code= , > >> should be a no-brainer to install=2E No discussion is needed for tha= t=2E > > Let's do the no-brainer and see how that goes=2E An accessibility opt= ion is good, > > but need an easy way to enable it after installing emacs=2E I suggest= an > > "Initial Option" such as "emacs -A", together with an elisp command > > "(accessibility 1)"=2E > > > > Jeff, what do you think about this? Would it be a good 70th birthday = present? > > > > Felicitations > > Christopher >=20 > Since you ask I will answer=2E >=20 > =E2=80=A2 I would NOT use an Initial Option such as "emacs -A" because t= hat > =C2=A0=C2=A0 means that you would have had to read the man page to know= that > =C2=A0=C2=A0 -the A option is there=2E=C2=A0 The Emacs 26=2E1 man page = is already 473 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 lines long=2E=C2=A0 If someone is having a hard time seein= g to begin with > =C2=A0=C2=A0 then expecting them to read their way through all that to = look for > =C2=A0=C2=A0 something they don't know is there is not exactly > =C2=A0=C2=A0 accessibility-friendly=2E There could be "emacs -h" telling you about the options=2E Still, you do = not like the loads of information about emacs to be useful to you=2E So let's= not demand a month of reading to enable accessibility=2E =20 > =E2=80=A2 Instead I would add an accessibility item either as an item to= the > =C2=A0=C2=A0 Options menu or, better still, add it as a separate item t= o the menu > =C2=A0=C2=A0 bar=2E=C2=A0 That would make it easy to stumble upon=2E=C2= =A0 :-) That is good plan=2E Although lately there has been a freak show by those who do not many any menu bar my default=2E I disagreed at the time, and s= till do=2E Not having the menu is tho same as saying "read the fucking 473 pag= e manual"=2E It really should be in the menu under heading "Accessibility"=2E =20 > =E2=80=A2 Which brings me to another point=2E=C2=A0 I accept that I prob= ably have > =C2=A0=C2=A0 some weirdness in my environment which causes Save Options= to > =C2=A0=C2=A0 fail, so solving that problem is probably on me=2E=C2=A0 B= UT since saving > =C2=A0=C2=A0 options has never worked for me I am particularly sensitiv= e to the > =C2=A0=C2=A0 issue of saving options=2E >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 As I understand it (because it has never worked for me) to= save > =C2=A0=C2=A0 options chosen one not only has to make changes somewhere = under > =C2=A0=C2=A0 the Options item but then one has to re-enter the Options = menu and > =C2=A0=C2=A0 explicitly save the changes=2E=C2=A0 If it were up to me I= 'd reorganize that > =C2=A0=C2=A0 so that each Options menu item had Cancel, Apply and Save = buttons > =C2=A0=C2=A0 so that you can save right then and there=2E >=20 > =C2=A0=C2=A0 HOWEVER I recognize that would be a major refactoring of t= he code > =C2=A0=C2=A0 (I have been a hard-core programmer all of my professional= life!) > =C2=A0=C2=A0 which would take a lot of work so it probably won't happen= =2E=C2=A0 BUT, as > =C2=A0=C2=A0 I said, if it were up to me I'd do it=2E The conclusion is that you would do it, and that emacs developers should d= o it=2E I can agree with that=2E =20 > =E2=80=A2 Responding to a comment in an earlier eMail, YES, the default = font > =C2=A0=C2=A0 size IS TOO SMALL to be accessibility-friendly=2E=C2=A0 It= is far easier for > =C2=A0=C2=A0 a person who has good vision to make the text smaller than= it is for > =C2=A0=C2=A0 a vision-impaired person to make the text bigger=2E Quite right=2E The font size is too small=2E In newspaper publishing, 65= characters are normally put in a single line=2E I would like that emacs does the sam= e (and then peaple can reduce that)=2E It also solved the problem with small screens,= which I use when I am on the road=2E =20 > I know all about wanting to cram more lines and columns of code into > a frame=2E=C2=A0 I used to have 20/20 vision and made the characters as = small > as possible so I could have more lines of code visible on my screen at > any one time=2E=C2=A0 Then I got older and, as happens to many people, I= lost > my ability to focus rather suddenly at about 45 years of age=2E Assuming > that you do make it to "older", then you may also discover, personally, > how important accessibility features really are=2E=C2=A0 So I urge you t= o get > them in place BEFORE you need them, and in the meantime making it > easier for all of the people who already have sight impairment=2E I agree, we should assume that getting older imposes some further emacs capabilities that are easy to use=2E=20 > Thank you, > Jeff Barry > Old Fart and Curmudgeon-In-Training It would help immensely if a number of other Old Fart friends comment on our discussion=2E The comments would help the emacs developer communit= y to=20 understand the importance of what the older members would find of value=2E There will be a time when they realise the difficulties, but would be a sh= ame if the changes take 20 years=2E =20 > PS: Fix the EMACS documentation problem with jargon too! =20 Makes sense to me too=2E I have been getting strong opposition to that=2E The debate is usually born out of experience=2E But with time, it has end= ed up to be an intellectual trap, and some want to warn the world about it=2E Thank you so very much=2E Christopher