bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Jeff B]

I've been using EMACS for 35 or 40 years now and EVERY DAMN TIME
I SWITCH SYSTEMS I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT ALL OVER AGAIN HOW TO
CHANGE THE DAMN FONT SIZE SO THAT IT'S BIG ENOUGH THAT I CAN
READ IT  *AND*  SAVE THAT SIZE SO THAT IT WILL BE THERE THE
NEXT TIME I START UP EMACS.  The mix of fonts with all their different
attributes may be fine for persons who want to play games with
appearance, but most of us just want to be able to set the font to be
the right size REGARDLESS of all the fancy colors and stuff of the
various modes & themes.  Yes I have used OPTIONS/SET-DEFAULT-FONT
and it is simple enough to increase the size there but nothing I have
tried on this latest system, shown below, and all prior systems, has
allowed me to set the size and save it so that I get it back when I
restart EMACS, and it makes me nuts.  All this font stuff is so complex
that it amounts to being a BUG for the ordinary user, especially those
of us who have eye troubles.  :-(

-------------------------------

In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 2, arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf, GTK+ Version 
3.24.5)
  of 2021-02-06, modified by Debian built on bm-wb-04
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12004000
System Description:    Raspbian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)


Configured using:
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bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:47:33 -0400
> 
> 
> I've been using EMACS for 35 or 40 years now and EVERY DAMN TIME
> I SWITCH SYSTEMS I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT ALL OVER AGAIN HOW TO
> CHANGE THE DAMN FONT SIZE SO THAT IT'S BIG ENOUGH THAT I CAN
> READ IT  *AND*  SAVE THAT SIZE SO THAT IT WILL BE THERE THE
> NEXT TIME I START UP EMACS.  The mix of fonts with all their different
> attributes may be fine for persons who want to play games with
> appearance, but most of us just want to be able to set the font to be
> the right size REGARDLESS of all the fancy colors and stuff of the
> various modes & themes.  Yes I have used OPTIONS/SET-DEFAULT-FONT
> and it is simple enough to increase the size there but nothing I have
> tried on this latest system, shown below, and all prior systems, has
> allowed me to set the size and save it so that I get it back when I
> restart EMACS, and it makes me nuts.  All this font stuff is so complex
> that it amounts to being a BUG for the ordinary user, especially those
> of us who have eye troubles.  :-(

Please try putting this into your ~/.emacs:

  (set-face-attribute 'default nil :height 150)

(tune the value 150 to your liking).  This should work on all
platforms, regardless of the font used for the default face.

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 6:08 AM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: "Jeff B" <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> Cc: 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.
>
> > From: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> > Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 12:47:33 -0400
> > 
> > 
> > I've been using EMACS for 35 or 40 years now and EVERY DAMN TIME
> > I SWITCH SYSTEMS I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT ALL OVER AGAIN HOW TO
> > CHANGE THE DAMN FONT SIZE SO THAT IT'S BIG ENOUGH THAT I CAN
> > READ IT  *AND*  SAVE THAT SIZE SO THAT IT WILL BE THERE THE
> > NEXT TIME I START UP EMACS.  The mix of fonts with all their different
> > attributes may be fine for persons who want to play games with
> > appearance, but most of us just want to be able to set the font to be
> > the right size REGARDLESS of all the fancy colors and stuff of the
> > various modes & themes.  Yes I have used OPTIONS/SET-DEFAULT-FONT
> > and it is simple enough to increase the size there but nothing I have
> > tried on this latest system, shown below, and all prior systems, has
> > allowed me to set the size and save it so that I get it back when I
> > restart EMACS, and it makes me nuts.  All this font stuff is so complex
> > that it amounts to being a BUG for the ordinary user, especially those
> > of us who have eye troubles.  :-(
> 
> Please try putting this into your ~/.emacs:
> 
>   (set-face-attribute 'default nil :height 150)
> 
> (tune the value 150 to your liking).  This should work on all
> platforms, regardless of the font used for the default face.

Eli, could the default font be increased as it is really far too small.  What
would help is to put a dark background by default.  The best theme there is today
for emacs is modus-themes because it utilises contrast metrics.  I lobby for
modus-themes to be used as the default theme for emacs.
 
 
 

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>, 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 00:45:16 +0200
> 
> Eli, could the default font be increased as it is really far too small.  What
> would help is to put a dark background by default.  The best theme there is today
> for emacs is modus-themes because it utilises contrast metrics.  I lobby for
> modus-themes to be used as the default theme for emacs.

Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 2:57 AM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net, 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.
>
> > From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>, 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 00:45:16 +0200
> >
> > Eli, could the default font be increased as it is really far too small.  What
> > would help is to put a dark background by default.  The best theme there is today
> > for emacs is modus-themes because it utilises contrast metrics.  I lobby for
> > modus-themes to be used as the default theme for emacs.
>
> Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
> than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.

You should start a public discussion about this so that you can make the appropriate
decision.  I do not see that increasing the font size a bit and using modus-themes
subtracts from emacs.  It only adds because modus-themes is currently the only
official emacs theme designed for accessible readability.

Felicitations
Christopher

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net, 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:07:32 +0200
> 
> > Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
> > than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.
> 
> You should start a public discussion about this so that you can make the appropriate
> decision.

Why me?  I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion
needs neither my consent nor my help.

So feel free to start such a discussion.

> I do not see that increasing the font size a bit and using modus-themes
> subtracts from emacs.  It only adds because modus-themes is currently the only
> official emacs theme designed for accessible readability.

But you didn't request these features to be turned on by some
"Accessibility" knob, like other applications do.  You requested them
by default, or at least that was my understanding.

The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by
default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code,
should be a no-brainer to install.  No discussion is needed for that.

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Christopher Dimech]

> > > Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
> > > than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.
>
> Why me?  I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion
> needs neither my consent nor my help.

So me starting a discussion does not require your consent nor your help.
I shall take you up on that and start discussing.

The suggestion was mainly driven by the previous comment that my requests are not
considered seriously.  This is not always a healthy solution to inactivity.

> The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by
> default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code,
> should be a no-brainer to install.  No discussion is needed for that.

Let's do the no-brainer and see how that goes.  An accessibility option is good,
but need an easy way to enable it after installing emacs.  I suggest an
"Initial Option" such as "emacs -A", together with an elisp command
"(accessibility 1)".

Jeff, what do you think about this?  Would it be a good 70th birthday present?

Felicitations
Christopher

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Jeff B]

My response is down below at the end.

>>>> Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
>>>> than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.
>> Why me?  I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion
>> needs neither my consent nor my help.
> On 6/17/21 10:13 AM, Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> So me starting a discussion does not require your consent nor your help.
> I shall take you up on that and start discussing.
>
> The suggestion was mainly driven by the previous comment that my requests are not
> considered seriously.  This is not always a healthy solution to inactivity.
>
>> The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by
>> default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code,
>> should be a no-brainer to install.  No discussion is needed for that.
> Let's do the no-brainer and see how that goes.  An accessibility option is good,
> but need an easy way to enable it after installing emacs.  I suggest an
> "Initial Option" such as "emacs -A", together with an elisp command
> "(accessibility 1)".
>
> Jeff, what do you think about this?  Would it be a good 70th birthday present?
>
> Felicitations
> Christopher

Since you ask I will answer.

• I would NOT use an Initial Option such as "emacs -A" because that
    means that you would have had to read the man page to know that
    -the A option is there.  The Emacs 26.1 man page is already 473
    lines long.  If someone is having a hard time seeing to begin with
    then expecting them to read their way through all that to look for
    something they don't know is there is not exactly
    accessibility-friendly.

• Instead I would add an accessibility item either as an item to the
    Options menu or, better still, add it as a separate item to the menu
    bar.  That would make it easy to stumble upon.  :-)

• Which brings me to another point.  I accept that I probably have
    some weirdness in my environment which causes Save Options to
    fail, so solving that problem is probably on me.  BUT since saving
    options has never worked for me I am particularly sensitive to the
    issue of saving options.

    As I understand it (because it has never worked for me) to save
    options chosen one not only has to make changes somewhere under
    the Options item but then one has to re-enter the Options menu and
    explicitly save the changes.  If it were up to me I'd reorganize that
    so that each Options menu item had Cancel, Apply and Save buttons
    so that you can save right then and there.

    HOWEVER I recognize that would be a major refactoring of the code
    (I have been a hard-core programmer all of my professional life!)
    which would take a lot of work so it probably won't happen.  BUT, as
    I said, if it were up to me I'd do it.

• Responding to a comment in an earlier eMail, YES, the default font
    size IS TOO SMALL to be accessibility-friendly.  It is far easier for
    a person who has good vision to make the text smaller than it is for
    a vision-impaired person to make the text bigger.

I know all about wanting to cram more lines and columns of code into
a frame.  I used to have 20/20 vision and made the characters as small
as possible so I could have more lines of code visible on my screen at
any one time.  Then I got older and, as happens to many people, I lost
my ability to focus rather suddenly at about 45 years of age. Assuming
that you do make it to "older", then you may also discover, personally,
how important accessibility features really are.  So I urge you to get
them in place BEFORE you need them, and in the meantime making it
easier for all of the people who already have sight impairment.

Thank you,
Jeff Barry
Old Fart and Curmudgeon-In-Training


PS: Fix the EMACS documentation problem with jargon too!

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:48:52 -0400
> 
> • Instead I would add an accessibility item either as an item to the
>     Options menu or, better still, add it as a separate item to the menu
>     bar.  That would make it easy to stumble upon.  :-)

I agree that having that in the menus and/or on the tool bar is a
better alternative.

> • Which brings me to another point.  I accept that I probably have
>     some weirdness in my environment which causes Save Options to
>     fail, so solving that problem is probably on me.  BUT since saving
>     options has never worked for me I am particularly sensitive to the
>     issue of saving options.
> 
>     As I understand it (because it has never worked for me) to save
>     options chosen one not only has to make changes somewhere under
>     the Options item but then one has to re-enter the Options menu and
>     explicitly save the changes.  If it were up to me I'd reorganize that
>     so that each Options menu item had Cancel, Apply and Save buttons
>     so that you can save right then and there.
> 
>     HOWEVER I recognize that would be a major refactoring of the code
>     (I have been a hard-core programmer all of my professional life!)
>     which would take a lot of work so it probably won't happen.  BUT, as
>     I said, if it were up to me I'd do it.

"Save Options" _must_ work.  If it doesn't, it's a bug that needs to
be fixed.  The only situation where Save Options is not expected to
save them is when you invoke Emacs with the -Q or -q switch.

So if you invoke Emacs without -q/-Q, and Emacs doesn't save the font
you customize, please report that with all the details as a bug, and
allow us to fix it.

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2021 at 6:48 AM
> From: "Jeff B" <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>, "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: 49050@debbugs.gnu.org
> Subject: Re: bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.
>
> 
> My response is down below at the end.
> 
> >>>> Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more
> >>>> than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously.
> >> Why me?  I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion
> >> needs neither my consent nor my help.
> > On 6/17/21 10:13 AM, Christopher Dimech wrote:
> >
> > So me starting a discussion does not require your consent nor your help.
> > I shall take you up on that and start discussing.
> >
> > The suggestion was mainly driven by the previous comment that my requests are not
> > considered seriously.  This is not always a healthy solution to inactivity.
> >
> >> The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by
> >> default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code,
> >> should be a no-brainer to install.  No discussion is needed for that.
> > Let's do the no-brainer and see how that goes.  An accessibility option is good,
> > but need an easy way to enable it after installing emacs.  I suggest an
> > "Initial Option" such as "emacs -A", together with an elisp command
> > "(accessibility 1)".
> >
> > Jeff, what do you think about this?  Would it be a good 70th birthday present?
> >
> > Felicitations
> > Christopher
> 
> Since you ask I will answer.
> 
> • I would NOT use an Initial Option such as "emacs -A" because that
>     means that you would have had to read the man page to know that
>     -the A option is there.  The Emacs 26.1 man page is already 473
>     lines long.  If someone is having a hard time seeing to begin with
>     then expecting them to read their way through all that to look for
>     something they don't know is there is not exactly
>     accessibility-friendly.

There could be "emacs -h" telling you about the options.  Still, you do not
like the loads of information about emacs to be useful to you.  So let's not
demand a month of reading to enable accessibility.
 
> • Instead I would add an accessibility item either as an item to the
>     Options menu or, better still, add it as a separate item to the menu
>     bar.  That would make it easy to stumble upon.  :-)

That is good plan.  Although lately there has been a freak show by those
who do not many any menu bar my default.  I disagreed at the time, and still
do.  Not having the menu is tho same as saying "read the fucking 473 page manual".

It really should be in the menu under heading "Accessibility".
 
> • Which brings me to another point.  I accept that I probably have
>     some weirdness in my environment which causes Save Options to
>     fail, so solving that problem is probably on me.  BUT since saving
>     options has never worked for me I am particularly sensitive to the
>     issue of saving options.
> 
>     As I understand it (because it has never worked for me) to save
>     options chosen one not only has to make changes somewhere under
>     the Options item but then one has to re-enter the Options menu and
>     explicitly save the changes.  If it were up to me I'd reorganize that
>     so that each Options menu item had Cancel, Apply and Save buttons
>     so that you can save right then and there.
> 
>     HOWEVER I recognize that would be a major refactoring of the code
>     (I have been a hard-core programmer all of my professional life!)
>     which would take a lot of work so it probably won't happen.  BUT, as
>     I said, if it were up to me I'd do it.

The conclusion is that you would do it, and that emacs developers should do it.
I can agree with that.
 
> • Responding to a comment in an earlier eMail, YES, the default font
>     size IS TOO SMALL to be accessibility-friendly.  It is far easier for
>     a person who has good vision to make the text smaller than it is for
>     a vision-impaired person to make the text bigger.

Quite right.  The font size is too small.  In newspaper publishing, 65 characters
are normally put in a single line.  I would like that emacs does the same (and then
peaple can reduce that).  It also solved the problem with small screens, which I use
when I am on the road.
 
> I know all about wanting to cram more lines and columns of code into
> a frame.  I used to have 20/20 vision and made the characters as small
> as possible so I could have more lines of code visible on my screen at
> any one time.  Then I got older and, as happens to many people, I lost
> my ability to focus rather suddenly at about 45 years of age. Assuming
> that you do make it to "older", then you may also discover, personally,
> how important accessibility features really are.  So I urge you to get
> them in place BEFORE you need them, and in the meantime making it
> easier for all of the people who already have sight impairment.

I agree, we should assume that getting older imposes some further emacs
capabilities that are easy to use. 

> Thank you,
> Jeff Barry
> Old Fart and Curmudgeon-In-Training

It would help immensely if a number of other Old Fart friends comment
on our discussion.  The comments would help the emacs developer community to 
understand the importance of what the older members would find of value.

There will be a time when they realise the difficulties, but would be a shame
if the changes take 20 years.
 
> PS: Fix the EMACS documentation problem with jargon too!
 
Makes sense to me too.  I have been getting strong opposition to that.
The debate is usually born out of experience.  But with time, it has ended
up to be an intellectual trap, and some want to warn the world about it.

Thank you so very much.
Christopher

bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 16:09:15 -0400
> 
> >> From: Jeff B <Jeff_B.atHome@clowderHouse.net>
> >> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 14:39:29 -0400
> >>
> >> There should be an EASY way to change the overall font size in EMACS
> >> and save that setting, one which is accessible in the menus where an
> >> untutored user can find it and use it.
> > On 6/15/21 3:05 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> >
> > That easy way is what you tried: Options->Set Default Font, then Save
> > Options.  I don't know why it didn't work for you, it does for me.
> 
> Well I don't know why the save has never worked for me.  Perhaps it is 
> because
> I've always happened to have tried it on odd number days of the month.  
> That's
> a good a guess as any.
> 
> I did make the change to my .emacs file which you suggested and it works, so
> thank you very much for that, and I shall hang onto that change for future
> reference.

Thanks, I'm therefore closing this bug.