bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

During an unrelated discussion on emacs-devel, it turns out that
virtually everybody is in the habit of making a change, then deleting
the change, just to make `C-x C-s' work.  This means that there is a
need for Emacs to offer a command to save buffers, even if they aren't
changed.

(All the electricity in the Emacs modes means that even if you find
typing `SPC DEL C-x C-s' convenient, sometimes it makes Stuff Happens,
and that DEL doesn't really undo what you've done.)

Several options exist:

1) Have the interactive `C-x C-s' command always save the buffer, no
matter whether it's unchanged or not.  I think many people would object
to this, as they're used to just `C-x C-s'-ing idly while thinking of
other things.

2) Have the prefix to that command save the unchanged buffer.  This
would be the obvious choice, but:

--------------
(save-buffer &optional ARG)

Save current buffer in visited file if modified.
Variations are described below.

By default, makes the previous version into a backup file
 if previously requested or if this is the first save.
Prefixed with one C-u, marks this version
 to become a backup when the next save is done.
Prefixed with two C-u’s,
 unconditionally makes the previous version into a backup file.
Prefixed with three C-u’s, marks this version
 to become a backup when the next save is done,
 and unconditionally makes the previous version into a backup file.
--------------

Eh.  Four `C-u's?  I don't think so.  We could bind `C-x C-s' to a new
`save-buffer-command' that has different prefix rules.  Does anybody use
the backup stuff?

3) Add a new keystroke.

4) Something else.



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-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Drew Adams]

> During an unrelated discussion on emacs-devel, it turns out that
> virtually everybody

Uh, 3 people?  OK, 3 out of the 3 who bothered to say something about
this.  But "virtually everybody" might be a bit of an exaggeration, no?

> is in the habit of making a change, then deleting
> the change, just to make `C-x C-s' work.
>
> This means that there is a need for Emacs to offer a command to save
> buffers, even if they aren't changed.

No, it does not mean that.

(But I have no objection to your adding such a command.)

> 1) Have the interactive `C-x C-s' command always save the buffer, no
> matter whether it's unchanged or not.  I think many people would object
> to this, as they're used to just `C-x C-s'-ing idly while thinking of
> other things.

I would object, for one.  If you feel you must add a command, add
a command.  But please do not mess with `C-x C-s'.

> 2) Have the prefix to that command save the unchanged buffer.  This
> would be the obvious choice, but:

<yes, a prefix arg already has meaning for `C-x C-s'>

> Eh.  Four `C-u's?  I don't think so.  We could bind `C-x C-s' to a new
> `save-buffer-command' that has different prefix rules.  Does anybody use
> the backup stuff?

Yes, of course they do.  Hard to believe you wonder about this,
or would even consider changing the UI of `C-x C-s'.

> 3) Add a new keystroke.
> 
> 4) Something else.

Just add the command.  Users can bind it themselves, if they like.
Time will then tell whether Emacs should at some point bind a key
for the command by default.

5) Use `C-u C-x C-w RET' instead of `C-x C-s'.  If you like, bind
that to another key.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Alan Mackenzie]

In article <mailman.8597.1459265831.843.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> you wrote:

> During an unrelated discussion on emacs-devel, it turns out that
> virtually everybody is in the habit of making a change, then deleting
> the change, just to make `C-x C-s' work.  This means that there is a
> need for Emacs to offer a command to save buffers, even if they aren't
> changed.

> (All the electricity in the Emacs modes means that even if you find
> typing `SPC DEL C-x C-s' convenient, sometimes it makes Stuff Happens,
> and that DEL doesn't really undo what you've done.)

> Several options exist:

> 1) Have the interactive `C-x C-s' command always save the buffer, no
> matter whether it's unchanged or not.  I think many people would object
> to this, as they're used to just `C-x C-s'-ing idly while thinking of
> other things.

> 2) Have the prefix to that command save the unchanged buffer.  This
> would be the obvious choice, but:

> --------------
> (save-buffer &optional ARG)

> Save current buffer in visited file if modified.
> Variations are described below.

> By default, makes the previous version into a backup file
>  if previously requested or if this is the first save.
> Prefixed with one C-u, marks this version
>  to become a backup when the next save is done.
> Prefixed with two C-u’s,
>  unconditionally makes the previous version into a backup file.
> Prefixed with three C-u’s, marks this version
>  to become a backup when the next save is done,
>  and unconditionally makes the previous version into a backup file.
> --------------

> Eh.  Four `C-u's?  I don't think so.  We could bind `C-x C-s' to a new
> `save-buffer-command' that has different prefix rules.  Does anybody use
> the backup stuff?

> 3) Add a new keystroke.

> 4) Something else.

User: C-x C-s
Emacs: "Buffer unmodified: save anyway? (y or n): "
User: y


> -- 
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
>    bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Johan Bockgård]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> 4) Something else.

C-u M-~

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Drew Adams]

> > 4) Something else.
> 
> C-u M-~

Followed by `C-x C-s'.

(Or as I wrote, `C-u C-x C-w RET'.)

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > During an unrelated discussion on emacs-devel, it turns out that
  > virtually everybody is in the habit of making a change, then deleting
  > the change, just to make `C-x C-s' work.

That's how I do it.  It's convenient and natural.

  >   This means that there is a
  > need for Emacs to offer a command to save buffers, even if they aren't
  > changed.

I draw a different conclusion: Emacs already has a simple and obvious
way to save an unchanged buffer, so no new features are needed for this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Óscar Fuentes]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > During an unrelated discussion on emacs-devel, it turns out that
>   > virtually everybody is in the habit of making a change, then deleting
>   > the change, just to make `C-x C-s' work.
>
> That's how I do it.  It's convenient and natural.

If certain modes are enabled, that method does not give back the
original content depending on the exact keys used.

>   >   This means that there is a
>   > need for Emacs to offer a command to save buffers, even if they aren't
>   > changed.
>
> I draw a different conclusion: Emacs already has a simple and obvious
> way to save an unchanged buffer, so no new features are needed for this.

I'll like to see that feature implemented as a safe method of forcing
Emacs to save the file without altering the buffer's content.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Andreas Schwab]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> a safe method of forcing Emacs to save the file without altering the
> buffer's content.

Two methods were already presented in this thread.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE  1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7
"And now for something completely different."

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Óscar Fuentes]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

> Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:
>
>> a safe method of forcing Emacs to save the file without altering the
>> buffer's content.
>
> Two methods were already presented in this thread.

Someone mentioned C-u C-x C-w, which shows a prompt where you are
supposed to write the file name of the buffer you are visiting. If you
type the wrong file name, hopefully you will notice the mistake before
creating too much damage.

This is not a safe method.

Other mentioned C-u M-~ (which actually should be C-u M-~ C-x C-s).
Apart from being a long finger-twisting sequence, M-~ is impossible to
type on some keyboards where ~ is written as AltGr-~, or difficult in
some input methods, where ~ is a dead key.

This is not convenient.

The char&del C-x C-s method is popular because Emacs does not offer
something better out of the box. It is about time that Emacs provides an
intuitive (as per Emacs standards), convenient and safe method for doing
that task.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Andreas Schwab]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> Someone mentioned C-u C-x C-w, which shows a prompt where you are
> supposed to write the file name of the buffer you are visiting. If you
> type the wrong file name,

You don't need to type anything but RET.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE  1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7
"And now for something completely different."

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Drew Adams]

> >> a safe method of forcing Emacs to save the file without altering the
> >> buffer's content.
> >
> > Two methods were already presented in this thread.
> 
> Someone mentioned C-u C-x C-w, which shows a prompt where you are
> supposed to write the file name of the buffer you are visiting. If you
> type the wrong file name, hopefully you will notice the mistake before
> creating too much damage.

I mentioned it.  And no - just hit RET.  End of story.

You need not enter any file name.  The file you are visiting is
saved (rewritten), without any name change.  There is really
nothing error prone about this, AFAICS.

> This is not a safe method.

Seems safe enough to me.  Have you encountered danger when using
it?  (Have you even tried to use it?)

But you are welcome to define a command that does the same thing
without any need to hit RET.  And bind that to a key.  Trivial to do.

I see no special reason why we need to add such a command to Emacs,
and a fortiori why we should need to bind such a command to a key
by default, and super a fortiori why we should modify `C-x C-s' so
that it does this.  Let's please keep someone's clever idea of DWIM
away from our good old stalwart `C-x C-s'.

This all seems to be a tempest in a teapot.
YAGNI, or if YNI then you can easily write it.

> Other mentioned C-u M-~ (which actually should be C-u M-~ C-x C-s).
> Apart from being a long finger-twisting sequence, M-~ is impossible to
> type on some keyboards where ~ is written as AltGr-~, or difficult in
> some input methods, where ~ is a dead key.
> 
> This is not convenient.

Again, trivial to bind to any key you like.

> The char&del C-x C-s method is popular because Emacs does
> not offer something better out of the box.

Again with the "popular" claim?  3 people said they use it,
sometimes.  Hardly a groundswell.

And neither method mentioned is a difficult workaround, if
you really want to force rewriting of the visited file.

> It is about time that Emacs provides an intuitive (as per
> Emacs standards), convenient and safe method for doing that task.

"That task" - again hyperbole.  Not much of a task, IMHO.

So no, I disagree that it is "about time that Emacs provide"
something to fill this great lack.

Nothing wrong with adding a command, if others really feel
it is lacking.  But I don't see why we would bind it by
default, and even less why we should mess with `C-x C-s'
to handle this "need".

Here's another thing to ponder: Of the 3 people who expressed
a need for force-saving the current file, how many bothered
to trivially define and bind a command to do that?  None of
them should have any problem doing that - they all Lisp well.

None did it (AFAIK).  Why not?  Because it isn't needed.
Even by them.  If enough users define and bind such a key,
we'll hear about it and we can then reconsider.  Until then,
WAGNI.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Óscar Fuentes]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

>> Someone mentioned C-u C-x C-w, which shows a prompt where you are
>> supposed to write the file name of the buffer you are visiting. If you
>> type the wrong file name,
>
> You don't need to type anything but RET.

Being an Emacs users guarantees that one learns something new
everyday...

So it is `C-u C-x C-w ENTER'. Or, if you are using Ido: `C-u C-x C-w
C-j'. Other completion packages might require their own variations.
Considering that `x' and `w' are typed with the same finger on Qwerty
keyboards, it is not the most convenient sequence.

Given how popular the practice seems to be, I still think that is
preferable to use an specific command that doesn't query redundant info
such as a file name and with a more convenient shortcut (something that
can improve over `<char> DEL C-x C-s')

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Drew Adams]

> So it is `C-u C-x C-w ENTER'. Or, if you are using Ido: `C-u C-x C-w
> C-j'. Other completion packages might require their own variations.
> Considering that `x' and `w' are typed with the same finger on Qwerty
> keyboards, it is not the most convenient sequence.

`x' and `s' are also typed with the same finger.  But I agree
that hitting `C-u' and `RET' (or `C-j') is additional work.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > The char&del C-x C-s method is popular because Emacs does not offer
  > something better out of the box.

I don't think the hypothetical "something better" would be enough of
an improvement to justify the increased complexity of one more option
or command.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.

bug#23151: 25.1.50; Emacs should have a convenient command for saving unchanged buffers

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't think the hypothetical "something better" would be enough of an
> improvement to justify the increased complexity of one more option or
> command.

I agree. If I ever want to "force saving", I use C-x C-w, or modify/unmodify
and C-x C-s, as others have mentioned.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2