bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Jason Earl]

(info "(eintr) append-to-buffer overview") covers a previous version of
append-to-buffer.


In GNU Emacs 24.0.50.5 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.22.0)
 of 2011-03-14 on c3po
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.10900000
Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: en_US.utf8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Info

Minor modes in effect:
  diff-auto-refine-mode: t
  yas/global-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  global-semantic-mru-bookmark-mode: t
  global-semanticdb-minor-mode: t
  global-semantic-idle-completions-mode: t
  global-semantic-idle-scheduler-mode: t
  global-semantic-idle-summary-mode: t
  global-semantic-decoration-mode: t
  global-semantic-highlight-func-mode: t
  global-semantic-stickyfunc-mode: t
  semantic-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  delete-selection-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
<return> <switch-frame> C-x k <return> <up> <down> 
<switch-frame> <up> <switch-frame> <up> <up> <switch-frame> 
<switch-frame> <switch-frame> <down> C-x o <return> 
<down> <return> <switch-frame> <switch-frame> <switch-frame> 
<switch-frame> C-x o <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <left> <down> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <return> q <up> <up> <switch-frame> 
C-h i u u u u u <down> <down> <down> <return> i s a 
v e - e x c u r <tab> <return> , u <return> SPC SPC 
SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC 
SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC <up> <up> <up> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <up> <switch-frame> 
<switch-frame> M-x r e b o <tab> <backspace> <backspace> 
p o <tab> r <tab> b <tab> <tab> e m <tab> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> d o <tab> <backspace> 
<backspace> e m <tab> <return>

Recent messages:
uncompressing eintr-3.gz...done
uncompressing eintr-2.gz...done
uncompressing eintr-3.gz...done
uncompressing eintr-3.gz...done
uncompressing eintr-3.gz...done
uncompressing eintr-1.gz...done
Found `save-excursion' in Index.  (Only match) [2 times]
byte-code: End of buffer [3 times]
Added 3 events for today
Making completion list... [2 times]

Load-path shadows:
~/.emacs.d/lisp/slime/slime hides /home/jearl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-20110219-cvs/slime
~/.emacs.d/lisp/slime/hyperspec hides /home/jearl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-20110219-cvs/hyperspec
~/.emacs.d/lisp/slime/slime-autoloads hides /home/jearl/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-20110219-cvs/slime-autoloads
/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/emms/tq hides /usr/local/share/emacs/24.0.50/lisp/emacs-lisp/tq

Features:
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dropdown-list ess-toolbar ess-mouse mouseme browse-url ess-menu speedbar
sb-image dframe ess-swv ess-noweb noweb-font-lock-mode ess-bugs-l
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esh-arg esh-util jadoea tango-dark-theme sha1 hex-util uniquify advice
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dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk
x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Chong Yidong]

Hi Bob,

Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.


Jason Earl <jearl@notengoamigos.org> writes:

> (info "(eintr) append-to-buffer overview") covers a previous version of
> append-to-buffer.

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Robert J. Chassell]

    Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
    append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
    break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
    with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.


    Jason Earl <jearl@notengoamigos.org> writes:

    > (info "(eintr) append-to-buffer overview") covers a previous version of
    > append-to-buffer.

Please try to fix it.  I am getting worse and have made many
mistakes just in composing this.  (I think I found them all.)
Please try to fix any in the future, too.

-- 
    Robert J. Chassell                          
    bob@gnu.org                                 bob@rattlesnake.com
    http://www.rattlesnake.com                  http://www.teak.cc

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Stefan Monnier]

> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.

Here are some thoughts:
- I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
  identical to the currently used code.
- append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
  text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
  cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
  processing on the string between the two) rather than with
  insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
- yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
  with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
  a simple fix.


        Stefan

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 20.03.2011 04:34, schrieb Stefan Monnier:
>> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
>> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
>> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
>> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.
>
> Here are some thoughts:
> - I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
>    identical to the currently used code.
> - append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
>    text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
>    cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
>    processing on the string between the two) rather than with
>    insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
> - yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
>    with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
>    a simple fix.
>
>
>          Stefan
>
>
>
>


just add:

"as GNU Emacs version 19 used it"

Cheers

Andreas

bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
>> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
>> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
>> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.
>
> Here are some thoughts:
> - I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
>   identical to the currently used code.
> - append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
>   text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
>   cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
>   processing on the string between the two) rather than with
>   insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
> - yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
>   with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
>   a simple fix.

I've now added the above comments to a comment in the file itself.  If
anyone intends to review that section, they will find the comment and a
pointer to this bug report.

bug#8275: [PATCH] Re: bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Y. E. via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2011 bytes --]

>>> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
>>> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
>>> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
>>> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.

The current version of the 'append-to-buffer' section:
- Provides explanations based on the 'append-to-buffer' function
  definition from GNU Emacs 22, which uses 'let*' but not
  'with-current-buffer'.
- Already introduces 'let*'.

The suggested patch improves the flow of the text by re-organizing it to
correspond better the structure of the 'append-to-buffer' function and
providing more details about the 'let*' expression in it.

>> Here are some thoughts:
>> - I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
>>   identical to the currently used code.

I also tend to think it should be fine to stick to some Emacs' version
(22 in this case) of the code, at least at this stage.

>> - append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
>>   text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
>>   cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
>>   processing on the string between the two) rather than with
>>   insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
>> - yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
>>   with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
>>   a simple fix.

The suggested patch concentrates on cleanups rather than rewrites,
because this may be a sufficient change (at this stage, again) and an
easier one to accomplish.

> I've now added the above comments to a comment in the file itself.  If
> anyone intends to review that section, they will find the comment and a
> pointer to this bug report.

The patch removes the mentioned comment since the suggested changes
cover fixing (or "wontfixing") the entries of the comment. A pointer to
this bug report was added to the suggested commit message.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Cleanup append-to-buffer section in ELisp Intro --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 9704 bytes --]

From 5c9495b5db9ecf168333d589260601948e26bfd8 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: YugaEgo <yet@ego.team>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:29:51 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Cleanup append-to-buffer section in ELisp Intro

* doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
(append-to-buffer, Buffer Related Review, fwd-para let):
Finalize shifting focus of the 'let*' introduction
to the 'append-to-buffer' section.  Improve wording, fix
typos, remove redundant comments (Bug#8275).
---
 doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi | 147 ++++++++++------------------
 1 file changed, 49 insertions(+), 98 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index 9f1f10e8d6..737749c625 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -4896,25 +4896,6 @@ Body of mark-whole-buffer
 is set at the end of the buffer.  The whole buffer is, therefore, the
 region.
 
-@c FIXME: the definition of append-to-buffer has been changed (in
-@c 2010-03-30).
-@c In Bug#8275, Stefan Monner <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
-@c >> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
-@c >> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
-@c >> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
-@c >> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.
-@c >
-@c > Here are some thoughts:
-@c > - I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
-@c >   identical to the currently used code.
-@c > - append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
-@c >   text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
-@c >   cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
-@c >   processing on the string between the two) rather than with
-@c >   insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
-@c > - yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
-@c >   with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
-@c >   a simple fix.
 @node append-to-buffer
 @section The Definition of @code{append-to-buffer}
 @findex append-to-buffer
@@ -4949,7 +4930,7 @@ append-to-buffer overview
 to, and the region that will be copied.
 
 @need 1250
-Here is the complete text of the function:
+Here is the complete text of the function in GNU Emacs 22:
 
 @smallexample
 @group
@@ -5017,7 +4998,9 @@ append interactive
 Since the @code{append-to-buffer} function will be used interactively,
 the function must have an @code{interactive} expression.  (For a
 review of @code{interactive}, see @ref{Interactive, , Making a
-Function Interactive}.)  The expression reads as follows:
+Function Interactive}.)
+
+The expression reads as follows:
 
 @smallexample
 @group
@@ -5046,7 +5029,7 @@ append interactive
 
 The first argument to @code{other-buffer}, the exception, is yet
 another function, @code{current-buffer}.  That is not going to be
-returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}. that
+returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true: @code{t}, that
 tells @code{other-buffer} that it may show visible buffers (except in
 this case, it will not show the current buffer, which makes sense).
 
@@ -5082,33 +5065,6 @@ append interactive
 @node append-to-buffer body
 @subsection The Body of @code{append-to-buffer}
 
-@ignore
-in GNU Emacs 22   in    /usr/local/src/emacs/lisp/simple.el
-
-(defun append-to-buffer (buffer start end)
-  "Append to specified buffer the text of the region.
-It is inserted into that buffer before its point.
-
-When calling from a program, give three arguments:
-BUFFER (or buffer name), START and END.
-START and END specify the portion of the current buffer to be copied."
-  (interactive
-   (list (read-buffer "Append to buffer: " (other-buffer (current-buffer) t))
-         (region-beginning) (region-end)))
-  (let ((oldbuf (current-buffer)))
-    (save-excursion
-      (let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
-             (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
-             point)
-        (set-buffer append-to)
-        (setq point (point))
-        (barf-if-buffer-read-only)
-        (insert-buffer-substring oldbuf start end)
-        (dolist (window windows)
-          (when (= (window-point window) point)
-            (set-window-point window (point))))))))
-@end ignore
-
 The body of the @code{append-to-buffer} function begins with @code{let}.
 
 As we have seen before (@pxref{let, , @code{let}}), the purpose of a
@@ -5127,7 +5083,7 @@ append-to-buffer body
   "@var{documentation}@dots{}"
   (interactive @dots{})
   (let ((@var{variable} @var{value}))
-        @var{body}@dots{})
+        @var{body}@dots{}))
 @end group
 @end smallexample
 
@@ -5247,19 +5203,40 @@ append save-excursion
 
 @need 1200
 @noindent
+@anchor{let* introduced}
+@cindex @code{let*} expression
+@findex let*
 In this function, the body of the @code{save-excursion} contains only
 one expression, the @code{let*} expression.  You know about a
-@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It has a
-@samp{*} in its name.  It enables Emacs to set each variable in its
-varlist in sequence, one after another.
+@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It
+enables Emacs to set each variable in its varlist in sequence, one
+after another; such that variables in the latter part of the varlist
+can make use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the
+varlist.
 
-Its critical feature is that variables later in the varlist can make
-use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the varlist.
-@xref{fwd-para let, , The @code{let*} expression}.
+Looking at the @code{let*} expression in @code{append-to-buffer}:
 
-We will skip functions like @code{let*} and focus on two: the
-@code{set-buffer} function and the @code{insert-buffer-substring}
-function.
+@smallexample
+@group
+(let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
+       (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
+       point)
+  BODY...)
+@end group
+@end smallexample
+
+@noindent
+we see that @code{append-to} is bound to the value returned by the
+@w{@code{(get-buffer-create buffer)}}. On the next line,
+@code{append-to} is used as an argument to
+@code{get-buffer-window-list}; this would not be possible with the
+@code{let} expression.  Note that @code{point} is automatically bound
+to @code{nil}, the same way as it would be done in the @code{let}
+statement.
+
+Now let's focus on the functions @code{set-buffer} and
+@code{insert-buffer-substring} in the body of the @code{let*}
+expression.
 
 @need 1250
 In the old days, the @code{set-buffer} expression was simply
@@ -5277,27 +5254,8 @@ append save-excursion
 @end smallexample
 
 @noindent
-@code{append-to} is bound to @code{(get-buffer-create buffer)} earlier
-on in the @code{let*} expression.  That extra binding would not be
-necessary except for that @code{append-to} is used later in the
-varlist as an argument to @code{get-buffer-window-list}.
-
-@ignore
-in GNU Emacs 22
-
-  (let ((oldbuf (current-buffer)))
-    (save-excursion
-      (let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
-             (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
-             point)
-        (set-buffer append-to)
-        (setq point (point))
-        (barf-if-buffer-read-only)
-        (insert-buffer-substring oldbuf start end)
-        (dolist (window windows)
-          (when (= (window-point window) point)
-            (set-window-point window (point))))))))
-@end ignore
+This is because @code{append-to} was bound to @code{(get-buffer-create
+buffer)} earlier on in the @code{let*} expression.
 
 The @code{append-to-buffer} function definition inserts text from the
 buffer in which you are currently to a named buffer.  It happens that
@@ -5394,6 +5352,12 @@ Buffer Related Review
 @item mark-whole-buffer
 Mark the whole buffer as a region.  Normally bound to @kbd{C-x h}.
 
+@item let*
+Declare a list of variables and give them an initial value; then
+evaluate the rest of the expressions in the body of @code{let*}.  The
+values of the variables can be used to bind ensuing variables in the
+list.
+
 @item set-buffer
 Switch the attention of Emacs to another buffer, but do not change the
 window being displayed.  Used when the program rather than a human is
@@ -12896,25 +12860,12 @@ forward-paragraph in brief
 @node fwd-para let
 @unnumberedsubsec The @code{let*} expression
 
-The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
-@code{let*} expression.  This is different from @code{let}.  The
-symbol is @code{let*} not @code{let}.
-
 @findex let*
-The @code{let*} special form is like @code{let} except that Emacs sets
-each variable in sequence, one after another, and variables in the
-latter part of the varlist can make use of the values to which Emacs
-set variables in the earlier part of the varlist.
-
-@ignore
-( refappend save-excursion, , code save-excursion in code append-to-buffer .)
-@end ignore
-
-(@ref{append save-excursion, , @code{save-excursion} in @code{append-to-buffer}}.)
-
-In the @code{let*} expression in this function, Emacs binds a total of
-seven variables:  @code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp},
-@code{parstart}, @code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
+The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
+@code{let*} expression (@pxref{let* introduced,,@code{let*}
+introduced}), in which Emacs binds a total of seven variables:
+@code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp}, @code{parstart},
+@code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
 @code{found-start}.
 
 The variable @code{parsep} appears twice, first, to remove instances
-- 
2.34.1

bug#8275: [PATCH] Re: bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 8275@debbugs.gnu.org, cyd@stupidchicken.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,
>  jearl@notengoamigos.org
> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2021 08:50:16 +0200
> From:  Y. E. via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
> 
> The suggested patch concentrates on cleanups rather than rewrites,
> because this may be a sufficient change (at this stage, again) and an
> easier one to accomplish.
> 
> > I've now added the above comments to a comment in the file itself.  If
> > anyone intends to review that section, they will find the comment and a
> > pointer to this bug report.
> 
> The patch removes the mentioned comment since the suggested changes
> cover fixing (or "wontfixing") the entries of the comment. A pointer to
> this bug report was added to the suggested commit message.

Thanks, please see some comments below.

> -Here is the complete text of the function:
> +Here is the complete text of the function in GNU Emacs 22:

Instead of alluding to a past version of Emacs, how about saying
something more vague, like "a variant of the function", or "a possible
implementation of the function"?  The goal of this manual is not to
show actual code used by Emacs, it's to teach programming in Emacs
Lisp.  So whether this is, or was, an actual implementation is
immaterial from the didactic POV.

> -returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}. that
> +returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true: @code{t}, that

I think the correct fix here is to capitalize "That" (and add a
space), so that it's the next separate sentence.

> +@anchor{let* introduced}
> +@cindex @code{let*} expression
> +@findex let*

It isn't useful to have several index entries that begin with the same
text and point to the same place.  This manual has just one index,
where all the index entries are placed together.  So I suggest
removing one of these two index entries.

>  In this function, the body of the @code{save-excursion} contains only
>  one expression, the @code{let*} expression.  You know about a
> -@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It has a
> -@samp{*} in its name.  It enables Emacs to set each variable in its
> -varlist in sequence, one after another.
> +@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It
> +enables Emacs to set each variable in its varlist in sequence, one
> +after another; such that variables in the latter part of the varlist
> +can make use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the
> +varlist.
>  
> -Its critical feature is that variables later in the varlist can make
> -use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the varlist.
> -@xref{fwd-para let, , The @code{let*} expression}.

I don't understand the rationale for this change.  It looks like
simple rewording of the original, with different partition into
sentences.  I see nothing wrong with the original text, so why did you
need to change it?

> -We will skip functions like @code{let*} and focus on two: the
> -@code{set-buffer} function and the @code{insert-buffer-substring}
> -function.
> +@smallexample
> +@group
> +(let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
> +       (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
> +       point)
> +  BODY...)
> +@end group
> +@end smallexample
> +
> +@noindent
> +we see that @code{append-to} is bound to the value returned by the
> +@w{@code{(get-buffer-create buffer)}}. On the next line,
> +@code{append-to} is used as an argument to
> +@code{get-buffer-window-list}; this would not be possible with the
> +@code{let} expression.  Note that @code{point} is automatically bound
> +to @code{nil}, the same way as it would be done in the @code{let}
> +statement.
> +
> +Now let's focus on the functions @code{set-buffer} and
> +@code{insert-buffer-substring} in the body of the @code{let*}
> +expression.

So, unlike the original author, you consider it important to explain
the let* part here?  Why is that?

> @@ -5394,6 +5352,12 @@ Buffer Related Review
>  @item mark-whole-buffer
>  Mark the whole buffer as a region.  Normally bound to @kbd{C-x h}.
>  
> +@item let*
> +Declare a list of variables and give them an initial value; then
> +evaluate the rest of the expressions in the body of @code{let*}.  The
> +values of the variables can be used to bind ensuing variables in the
> +list.
> +
>  @item set-buffer
>  Switch the attention of Emacs to another buffer, but do not change the
>  window being displayed.  Used when the program rather than a human is
> @@ -12896,25 +12860,12 @@ forward-paragraph in brief
>  @node fwd-para let
>  @unnumberedsubsec The @code{let*} expression
>  
> -The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
> -@code{let*} expression.  This is different from @code{let}.  The
> -symbol is @code{let*} not @code{let}.
> -
>  @findex let*
> -The @code{let*} special form is like @code{let} except that Emacs sets
> -each variable in sequence, one after another, and variables in the
> -latter part of the varlist can make use of the values to which Emacs
> -set variables in the earlier part of the varlist.
> -
> -@ignore
> -( refappend save-excursion, , code save-excursion in code append-to-buffer .)
> -@end ignore
> -
> -(@ref{append save-excursion, , @code{save-excursion} in @code{append-to-buffer}}.)
> -
> -In the @code{let*} expression in this function, Emacs binds a total of
> -seven variables:  @code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp},
> -@code{parstart}, @code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
> +The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
> +@code{let*} expression (@pxref{let* introduced,,@code{let*}
> +introduced}), in which Emacs binds a total of seven variables:
> +@code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp}, @code{parstart},
> +@code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
>  @code{found-start}.

This seems to move the description of let* to an earlier part of the
manual.  Once again, I ask: what's the rationale for the change in the
order?

bug#8275: [PATCH] Re: bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Y. E. via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3169 bytes --]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> -Here is the complete text of the function:
>> +Here is the complete text of the function in GNU Emacs 22:
>
> Instead of alluding to a past version of Emacs, how about saying
> something more vague, like "a variant of the function", or "a possible
> implementation of the function"?

Done.

Note that the style of the patch was based on the existing texts. Should
I create a bug report (maybe with a patch) asking to replace other 'In
GNU Emacs 22' phrases used in the same context?

________________

> The goal of this manual is not to
> show actual code used by Emacs, it's to teach programming in Emacs
> Lisp.
If this is true, then the manual has to be re-written very deeply.
Currently, the manual promises (and often does) to show actual code
usage. Citing `(eintr) On Reading this Text':

> Much of this introduction is dedicated to walkthroughs or guided
> tours of code used in GNU Emacs.  These tours are designed for two
> purposes: first, to give you familiarity with real, working code (code
> you use every day); and, second, to give you familiarity with the way
> Emacs works.

[I personally prefer what the manual promises (mostly does) now.]

________________

>> -returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}. that
>> +returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true: @code{t}, that
>
> I think the correct fix here is to capitalize "That" (and add a
> space), so that it's the next separate sentence.

Done.

________________


>> +@anchor{let* introduced}
>> +@cindex @code{let*} expression
>> +@findex let*
>
> It isn't useful to have several index entries that begin with the same
> text and point to the same place.  This manual has just one index,
> where all the index entries are placed together.  So I suggest
> removing one of these two index entries.

Thanks, removed.

________________

> This seems to move the description of let* to an earlier part of the
> manual.
The description of 'let*' is *already* in the earlier part of the
manual. (The patch is based on the current version.)

> Once again, I ask: what's the rationale for the change in the
> order?

The following is the order of the occurrences of 'let*' in the manual:

1. 'let*' is defined in `(eintr) append-to-buffer overview',

2. Then it's mentioned in the code and text of the `(eintr) kill-append
function',

3. Then it's mentioned in the intro text of `(eintr) forward-paragraph',

4. Then it's defined for the second time in `(eintr) fwd-para let',
using the same words and phrases as in the 1st occurrence.

Therefore, it seems to be more comprehensible for a reader to be
introduced to 'let*' (in a more clear manner than it is now) on the 1st
of the listed occurrences, rather than on the 4th.


Anyway, if there's a strong opinion 'let*' has to be introduced in
`(eintr) fwd-para let' and not earlier, then I'd suggest scratching out
the mentions of 'let*' from all the earlier parts altogether (or limit
them to a bare minimum and reference to the definition).

I'm fine with either (or any other) as long as the text of the manual
reads smoothly and doesn't contain unnecessary duplications.


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Cleanup append-to-buffer section in ELisp Intro --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 9726 bytes --]

From e1c2f3d92ae7a82ba98b7849647bb3940afa0e8c Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: YugaEgo <yet@ego.team>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:29:51 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Cleanup append-to-buffer section in ELisp Intro

* doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
(append-to-buffer, Buffer Related Review, fwd-para let):
Finalize shifting focus of the 'let*' introduction
to the 'append-to-buffer' section.  Improve wording, fix
typos, remove redundant comments (Bug#8275).
---
 doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi | 147 ++++++++++------------------
 1 file changed, 49 insertions(+), 98 deletions(-)

diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index 9f1f10e8d6..43f1c2ddd5 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -4896,25 +4896,6 @@ Body of mark-whole-buffer
 is set at the end of the buffer.  The whole buffer is, therefore, the
 region.
 
-@c FIXME: the definition of append-to-buffer has been changed (in
-@c 2010-03-30).
-@c In Bug#8275, Stefan Monner <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
-@c >> Do you want to fix this, or shall I try?  The problem is that
-@c >> append-to-buffer now uses let* and with-current-buffer, so this might
-@c >> break the flow of the text.  At this point in the book, let* and
-@c >> with-current-buffer are not yet introduced.
-@c >
-@c > Here are some thoughts:
-@c > - I don't think it's of any importance that the example code be
-@c >   identical to the currently used code.
-@c > - append-to-buffer might not be the best example since AFAICT copying
-@c >   text from one buffer to another is not a common operation and in most
-@c >   cases this is done via buffer-substring + insert (often with some
-@c >   processing on the string between the two) rather than with
-@c >   insert-buffer-substring which is a rarely used function.
-@c > - yes, I think the text would benefit from some rethink to try and present
-@c >   with-current-buffer in preference to set-buffer, but it's not
-@c >   a simple fix.
 @node append-to-buffer
 @section The Definition of @code{append-to-buffer}
 @findex append-to-buffer
@@ -4949,8 +4930,9 @@ append-to-buffer overview
 to, and the region that will be copied.
 
 @need 1250
-Here is the complete text of the function:
+Here is a possible implementation of the function:
 
+@c GNU Emacs 22
 @smallexample
 @group
 (defun append-to-buffer (buffer start end)
@@ -5017,7 +4999,9 @@ append interactive
 Since the @code{append-to-buffer} function will be used interactively,
 the function must have an @code{interactive} expression.  (For a
 review of @code{interactive}, see @ref{Interactive, , Making a
-Function Interactive}.)  The expression reads as follows:
+Function Interactive}.)
+
+The expression reads as follows:
 
 @smallexample
 @group
@@ -5046,7 +5030,7 @@ append interactive
 
 The first argument to @code{other-buffer}, the exception, is yet
 another function, @code{current-buffer}.  That is not going to be
-returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}. that
+returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}.  That
 tells @code{other-buffer} that it may show visible buffers (except in
 this case, it will not show the current buffer, which makes sense).
 
@@ -5082,33 +5066,6 @@ append interactive
 @node append-to-buffer body
 @subsection The Body of @code{append-to-buffer}
 
-@ignore
-in GNU Emacs 22   in    /usr/local/src/emacs/lisp/simple.el
-
-(defun append-to-buffer (buffer start end)
-  "Append to specified buffer the text of the region.
-It is inserted into that buffer before its point.
-
-When calling from a program, give three arguments:
-BUFFER (or buffer name), START and END.
-START and END specify the portion of the current buffer to be copied."
-  (interactive
-   (list (read-buffer "Append to buffer: " (other-buffer (current-buffer) t))
-         (region-beginning) (region-end)))
-  (let ((oldbuf (current-buffer)))
-    (save-excursion
-      (let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
-             (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
-             point)
-        (set-buffer append-to)
-        (setq point (point))
-        (barf-if-buffer-read-only)
-        (insert-buffer-substring oldbuf start end)
-        (dolist (window windows)
-          (when (= (window-point window) point)
-            (set-window-point window (point))))))))
-@end ignore
-
 The body of the @code{append-to-buffer} function begins with @code{let}.
 
 As we have seen before (@pxref{let, , @code{let}}), the purpose of a
@@ -5127,7 +5084,7 @@ append-to-buffer body
   "@var{documentation}@dots{}"
   (interactive @dots{})
   (let ((@var{variable} @var{value}))
-        @var{body}@dots{})
+        @var{body}@dots{}))
 @end group
 @end smallexample
 
@@ -5247,19 +5204,39 @@ append save-excursion
 
 @need 1200
 @noindent
+@anchor{let* introduced}
+@findex let*
 In this function, the body of the @code{save-excursion} contains only
 one expression, the @code{let*} expression.  You know about a
-@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It has a
-@samp{*} in its name.  It enables Emacs to set each variable in its
-varlist in sequence, one after another.
+@code{let} function.  The @code{let*} function is different.  It
+enables Emacs to set each variable in its varlist in sequence, one
+after another; such that variables in the latter part of the varlist
+can make use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the
+varlist.
 
-Its critical feature is that variables later in the varlist can make
-use of the values to which Emacs set variables earlier in the varlist.
-@xref{fwd-para let, , The @code{let*} expression}.
+Looking at the @code{let*} expression in @code{append-to-buffer}:
 
-We will skip functions like @code{let*} and focus on two: the
-@code{set-buffer} function and the @code{insert-buffer-substring}
-function.
+@smallexample
+@group
+(let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
+       (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
+       point)
+  BODY...)
+@end group
+@end smallexample
+
+@noindent
+we see that @code{append-to} is bound to the value returned by the
+@w{@code{(get-buffer-create buffer)}}. On the next line,
+@code{append-to} is used as an argument to
+@code{get-buffer-window-list}; this would not be possible with the
+@code{let} expression.  Note that @code{point} is automatically bound
+to @code{nil}, the same way as it would be done in the @code{let}
+statement.
+
+Now let's focus on the functions @code{set-buffer} and
+@code{insert-buffer-substring} in the body of the @code{let*}
+expression.
 
 @need 1250
 In the old days, the @code{set-buffer} expression was simply
@@ -5277,27 +5254,8 @@ append save-excursion
 @end smallexample
 
 @noindent
-@code{append-to} is bound to @code{(get-buffer-create buffer)} earlier
-on in the @code{let*} expression.  That extra binding would not be
-necessary except for that @code{append-to} is used later in the
-varlist as an argument to @code{get-buffer-window-list}.
-
-@ignore
-in GNU Emacs 22
-
-  (let ((oldbuf (current-buffer)))
-    (save-excursion
-      (let* ((append-to (get-buffer-create buffer))
-             (windows (get-buffer-window-list append-to t t))
-             point)
-        (set-buffer append-to)
-        (setq point (point))
-        (barf-if-buffer-read-only)
-        (insert-buffer-substring oldbuf start end)
-        (dolist (window windows)
-          (when (= (window-point window) point)
-            (set-window-point window (point))))))))
-@end ignore
+This is because @code{append-to} was bound to @code{(get-buffer-create
+buffer)} earlier on in the @code{let*} expression.
 
 The @code{append-to-buffer} function definition inserts text from the
 buffer in which you are currently to a named buffer.  It happens that
@@ -5394,6 +5352,12 @@ Buffer Related Review
 @item mark-whole-buffer
 Mark the whole buffer as a region.  Normally bound to @kbd{C-x h}.
 
+@item let*
+Declare a list of variables and give them an initial value; then
+evaluate the rest of the expressions in the body of @code{let*}.  The
+values of the variables can be used to bind ensuing variables in the
+list.
+
 @item set-buffer
 Switch the attention of Emacs to another buffer, but do not change the
 window being displayed.  Used when the program rather than a human is
@@ -12896,25 +12860,12 @@ forward-paragraph in brief
 @node fwd-para let
 @unnumberedsubsec The @code{let*} expression
 
-The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
-@code{let*} expression.  This is different from @code{let}.  The
-symbol is @code{let*} not @code{let}.
-
 @findex let*
-The @code{let*} special form is like @code{let} except that Emacs sets
-each variable in sequence, one after another, and variables in the
-latter part of the varlist can make use of the values to which Emacs
-set variables in the earlier part of the varlist.
-
-@ignore
-( refappend save-excursion, , code save-excursion in code append-to-buffer .)
-@end ignore
-
-(@ref{append save-excursion, , @code{save-excursion} in @code{append-to-buffer}}.)
-
-In the @code{let*} expression in this function, Emacs binds a total of
-seven variables:  @code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp},
-@code{parstart}, @code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
+The next line of the @code{forward-paragraph} function begins a
+@code{let*} expression (@pxref{let* introduced,,@code{let*}
+introduced}), in which Emacs binds a total of seven variables:
+@code{opoint}, @code{fill-prefix-regexp}, @code{parstart},
+@code{parsep}, @code{sp-parstart}, @code{start}, and
 @code{found-start}.
 
 The variable @code{parsep} appears twice, first, to remove instances
-- 
2.34.1

bug#8275: [PATCH] Re: bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > The goal of this manual is not to
  > > show actual code used by Emacs, it's to teach programming in Emacs
  > > Lisp.

That is basically true, but perhaps a little too strongly put.
Teaching programming in Emacs Lisp is the primary goal.

  > Currently, the manual promises (and often does) to show actual code
  > usage. Citing `(eintr) On Reading this Text':

That is also true.  That is another nice thing that the manual does
"along the way."

It is fine to say "this is the code of function foo in Emacs 22", in
case years later someone reads that text when Emacs 32 is current, so
perse will understand why this example does not show the current Emacs
code.

Would it be better to update the manual to use the Emacs 32 code as an
example?  Maybe.

The advantage is, that it will show the code of the current Emacs.
The disadvantages are,

(1) updating the explanation is work, and needs a good writer,

(2) the newer code may be longer and more complex, so that it will be
more work to understand, and thus not as good for the manual's primary
goal,

(3) the newer code might be changed so much that it is no longer an
example of the feature to be illustrated.

When that last happens, it is possible to find and use a different
piece of code in Emacs.  But that's even more work.  Maybe the best
choice is to keep the Emacs 22 code as the example.

This partly depends on whether a good writer is available.  We don't
have anyone now who writes as well as Bob Chassell.

If you want to aim to develop your skills, by all means do -- but that
calls for getting lots of careful feedback from thoughtful readers
willing to spend time critiquing your writing.  Almost nobody gets to
be that good without doihg lots of writing and getting lots if
critiques.  On manuals I've written, I have generally got dozens of
people to read them carefully to report small points that were not
entirely clear.

Sometimes I would ask what makes a certain piece of text unclear, and
discuss possible improvements.

From each critique I addressed, I learned.  If you take this path,
you'll keep getting gradually better at writing.  But the path is long.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#8275: [PATCH] Re: bug#8275: 24.0.50; Intro to Emacs Lisp Issue

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Y. E. <yet@ego.team>
> Cc: yet@ego.team, stefan@marxist.se, 8275@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  cyd@stupidchicken.com,
> 	monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, jearl@notengoamigos.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 14:52:51 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> >> -Here is the complete text of the function:
> >> +Here is the complete text of the function in GNU Emacs 22:
> >
> > Instead of alluding to a past version of Emacs, how about saying
> > something more vague, like "a variant of the function", or "a possible
> > implementation of the function"?
> 
> Done.
> 
> Note that the style of the patch was based on the existing texts. Should
> I create a bug report (maybe with a patch) asking to replace other 'In
> GNU Emacs 22' phrases used in the same context?
> 
> ________________
> 
> > The goal of this manual is not to
> > show actual code used by Emacs, it's to teach programming in Emacs
> > Lisp.
> If this is true, then the manual has to be re-written very deeply.
> Currently, the manual promises (and often does) to show actual code
> usage. Citing `(eintr) On Reading this Text':
> 
> > Much of this introduction is dedicated to walkthroughs or guided
> > tours of code used in GNU Emacs.  These tours are designed for two
> > purposes: first, to give you familiarity with real, working code (code
> > you use every day); and, second, to give you familiarity with the way
> > Emacs works.
> 
> [I personally prefer what the manual promises (mostly does) now.]
> 
> ________________
> 
> >> -returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true, @code{t}. that
> >> +returned.  The second argument is the symbol for true: @code{t}, that
> >
> > I think the correct fix here is to capitalize "That" (and add a
> > space), so that it's the next separate sentence.
> 
> Done.
> 
> ________________
> 
> 
> >> +@anchor{let* introduced}
> >> +@cindex @code{let*} expression
> >> +@findex let*
> >
> > It isn't useful to have several index entries that begin with the same
> > text and point to the same place.  This manual has just one index,
> > where all the index entries are placed together.  So I suggest
> > removing one of these two index entries.
> 
> Thanks, removed.
> 
> ________________
> 
> > This seems to move the description of let* to an earlier part of the
> > manual.
> The description of 'let*' is *already* in the earlier part of the
> manual. (The patch is based on the current version.)
> 
> > Once again, I ask: what's the rationale for the change in the
> > order?
> 
> The following is the order of the occurrences of 'let*' in the manual:
> 
> 1. 'let*' is defined in `(eintr) append-to-buffer overview',
> 
> 2. Then it's mentioned in the code and text of the `(eintr) kill-append
> function',
> 
> 3. Then it's mentioned in the intro text of `(eintr) forward-paragraph',
> 
> 4. Then it's defined for the second time in `(eintr) fwd-para let',
> using the same words and phrases as in the 1st occurrence.
> 
> Therefore, it seems to be more comprehensible for a reader to be
> introduced to 'let*' (in a more clear manner than it is now) on the 1st
> of the listed occurrences, rather than on the 4th.
> 
> 
> Anyway, if there's a strong opinion 'let*' has to be introduced in
> `(eintr) fwd-para let' and not earlier, then I'd suggest scratching out
> the mentions of 'let*' from all the earlier parts altogether (or limit
> them to a bare minimum and reference to the definition).
> 
> I'm fine with either (or any other) as long as the text of the manual
> reads smoothly and doesn't contain unnecessary duplications.

Thanks, I installed this on the master branch, and I'm closing this
bug.